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Thread: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    You actually said however ......
    Guilty as charged I shouldn't type my thoughts, as soon they come into my head!
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    My view and its only a view is WCS is a threat to the very existence of ‘ceroc’ not jive but 'ceroc' and that would be sad
    Other dance forms exist and they simply offer an alternative. Salsa for example. I tried salsa a number of times and deduced that I would never be able to dance. I tried Jive and found it a great introduction to dance.

    Ceroc get a large number of people through the door and trying dance. I think these are a lot of the people that "move on" to WCS. If Ceroc were to wither due to WCS and I don't think it will. Then if what you say is true then you might say WCS is a threat to itself.

    Steve

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Ceroc do what they do extremely well, as Stewart says 'If it ain't broke.....' I don't think by putting on WCS classes at a Ceroc weekender you are going to entice the hardcore WCSers, equally as putting on Tango, Salsa classes wouldn't entice Tango and Salsa dancers. All you achieve is introducing MJers to a new dance, therefore enticing them away from Ceroc. Also the classes would be pitched at beginners, so the established WCSers wouldn't really bother with the classes anyway. The core of WCSers, that I know, don't want to do MJ at all. They prefer to stick to just coasting. Which is why you tend to find they turn up in groups and have the reputation of being 'snoots' as they want to Coast not Jive. Personally I like to do both as I get different things from each dance. You will still get people, like myself, that like to do both MJ and WCS, regardless of the lack of WCS classes or a dedicated WCS room, as there is plenty of music at a Jive event that I can Coast to.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post
    Other dance forms exist and they simply offer an alternative. Salsa for example. I tried salsa a number of times and deduced that I would never be able to dance. I tried Jive and found it a great introduction to dance.

    Ceroc get a large number of people through the door and trying dance. I think these are a lot of the people that "move on" to WCS. If Ceroc were to wither due to WCS and I don't think it will. Then if what you say is true then you might say WCS is a threat to itself.

    Steve
    Ceroc will never wither and die due to WCS.

    I have been going to WCS lessons for a year and a half, I have seen many accomplished Ceroc dancers come and go because they can't get their heads around the fact that as Intermediate / Advanced Jivers they are now beginners at WCS.

    WCS starts teaching you basic dance fundamentals that are NEVER taught in an ordinary CEROC class, maybe there not even taught in a workshop.

    WCS starts to teach you musicality, whether you get it is another matter.
    I am unsure whether any one in Ceroc teaches a Musicality workshop where they mention 32 bar frases of music? etc
    WCS will start teaching you about footwork, the different parts of the foot that can be engaged within the dance, did you know there are twelve parts of the foot and only ten parts could be used!!!

    After a year and a half and probably a lot longer I will still perceive myself as a beginner at WCS, I have danced as a jiver for 8 years and I am a fairly confident dancer, any one that knows me can make up their own mind whether I am any good or not.
    To get good at WCS takes time, effort and endurance but I believe it is well worth all this and more, I have been told by a Ceroc lady Judge who is an accomplished dancer in many different styles etc that my over all dancing has improved because of my WCS efforts

    Please note I love Jiving it has brought me great happiness and lots of joy, I have even met a rather quiet young lady

    WCS has now given me a newchallenge.

    I'll stop rambling now, over and out

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    Ceroc do what they do extremely well, as Stewart says 'If it ain't broke.....' I don't think by putting on WCS classes at a Ceroc weekender you are going to entice the hardcore WCSers, equally as putting on Tango, Salsa classes wouldn't entice Tango and Salsa dancers. All you achieve is introducing MJers to a new dance, therefore enticing them away from Ceroc. Also the classes would be pitched at beginners, so the established WCSers wouldn't really bother with the classes anyway. The core of WCSers, that I know, don't want to do MJ at all. They prefer to stick to just coasting. Which is why you tend to find they turn up in groups and have the reputation of being 'snoots' as they want to Coast not Jive. Personally I like to do both as I get different things from each dance. You will still get people, like myself, that like to do both MJ and WCS, regardless of the lack of WCS classes or a dedicated WCS room, as there is plenty of music at a Jive event that I can Coast to.
    and

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    At present Southport can put on half WCS classes and half Jive classes and not cater for the beginner, it doesn’t have a brand to protect/promote

    Maybe in 2009 one of their weekenders will have 80% WCS theme or be just a WCS weekender although given lack of teachers etc maybe by 2010 ?
    I hope Southport wont change

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    The core of WCSers, that I know, don't want to do MJ at all. They prefer to stick to just coasting.

    Personally I like to do both as I get different things from each dance.
    I'm like you, I love Jiving and Blues, just as much as WCS. In fact, the WCS room at Southport gets too much for me for any length of time!
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiky Steve View Post
    Other dance forms exist and they simply offer an alternative. Salsa for example. I tried salsa a number of times and deduced that I would never be able to dance. I tried Jive and found it a great introduction to dance.

    Ceroc get a large number of people through the door and trying dance. I think these are a lot of the people that "move on" to WCS. If Ceroc were to wither due to WCS and I don't think it will. Then if what you say is true then you might say WCS is a threat to itself.

    Steve
    I didn’t like salsa because of the music and unfriendly venues I went to but id still like to see it at a weekender as it offers an alternative

    There is nothing wrong with WCS at weekenders, the comments below could equally apply to Tango or foxtrot !


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Anyone else note the lack of WCS classes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Several people have commented on this. I wasn't there this year, but last year at Storm they not only put on WCS classes but had a dedicated WCS room - the perfect environment for people to build on the lessons.
    Quote Originally Posted by FoxyFunkster View Post
    Ceroc have a problem in that they don`t have anyone experienced enough to teach WCS classes,
    The problem is this

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Let's just hope that Ceroc remove their One-True-Way blinkers and remember what MJ actually is!

    What is MJ ? Is it a dance that needs WCS to improve and survive ? Better dancers wont attend because there is no WCS ?? This patronising 'move on' to WCS etc...

    Are people saying ceroc can no longer appeal to the experience dancer ? Perhaps they should learn a real dance like Tango and give ceroc up after 3yrs ??


    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    I don't think this is a bad thing, it's what Ceroc do best and it means that JiveAddictions weekenders continue as offering something different for the more experienced dancer. Therefore they cater for different punters, so hopefully can both carry on their success without any need for being in competition with each other.

    Of course for the last 25yrs that hasnt happened

    In fact ceroc you could argue has been too sucessful in retaining dancers (average age of dancer has gone up by 10yrs in last 15yrs in ceroc?)

    I think we have too many National Argentian Tango champions on this forum who now who say

    Hey I started in ceroc

    Then after a 6 weeks I was too good for that so I went and did WCS

    3 weeks after that I did a real dance Tango and learnt what real dancing is

    I think the above maybe true and there is nothing wrong with that thought.....

    but then they say when there doing the Tango, hey I want to go back to ceroc and make it like Tango because Tango is 10 times better then that crap Ceroc.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    [B][SIZE=3]
    WCS starts to teach you musicality, whether you get it is another matter.
    So my rant a few years back that some who dance in the a certain Jive champs had all the musicality of a telephone book has been proven to be true

    Without WCS we have no musicality

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post

    Please note I love Jiving it has brought me great happiness and lots of joy, I have even met a rather quiet young lady
    so when are you going to take the quiet one to a weekender the one you were with when i met you was fletch

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I hope Southport wont change

    The only constant is change...Very little lasts forever which is how it should be. I think the Southport weekends are amazing but the are not meant to be around forever. Rejoice that you were part of something and enjoy.

    Big thank you to John and Wes for being the ones who get off their butts to create something like this. Long may they continue. Many happy memories that have not yet been made...

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordieed View Post
    Rejoice that you were part of something and enjoy.

    Many happy memories that have not yet been made...
    What are you smoking ?

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    Dickie Davies' love-child Cruella's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    There have been changes at Southport in the past, John and Wes listen to and act on feedback constantly. I have an idea and wondered what other Southport attendees would think about it. Personally I didn't like the WCS room very much as I thought it took away too many dancers from the main venue and the dynamics in the blues room seemed to change because of this. Now that the Dance Den will not be available I would love to seee the bar area (Blues room) become a WCS room and the Latin room become a blues/swing/latin room (a chillout room). What do others think?
    (A moderator might want to start a new thread)

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella View Post
    (A moderator might want to start a new thread)
    Done!
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Ceroc will never wither and die due to WCS.

    I have been going to WCS lessons for a year and a half, I have seen many accomplished Ceroc dancers come and go because they can't get their heads around the fact that as Intermediate / Advanced Jivers they are now beginners at WCS.

    WCS starts teaching you basic dance fundamentals that are NEVER taught in an ordinary CEROC class, maybe there not even taught in a workshop.

    WCS starts to teach you musicality, whether you get it is another matter.
    I am unsure whether any one in Ceroc teaches a Musicality workshop where they mention 32 bar frases of music? etc
    WCS will start teaching you about footwork, the different parts of the foot that can be engaged within the dance, did you know there are twelve parts of the foot and only ten parts could be used!!!

    After a year and a half and probably a lot longer I will still perceive myself as a beginner at WCS, I have danced as a jiver for 8 years and I am a fairly confident dancer, any one that knows me can make up their own mind whether I am any good or not.
    To get good at WCS takes time, effort and endurance but I believe it is well worth all this and more, I have been told by a Ceroc lady Judge who is an accomplished dancer in many different styles etc that my over all dancing has improved because of my WCS efforts

    Please note I love Jiving it has brought me great happiness and lots of joy, I have even met a rather quiet young lady

    WCS has now given me a newchallenge.

    I'll stop rambling now, over and out
    Yes I'd agree these things aren't emphasised quite enough with MJ but I've already been to a blues workshop (independent I'll admit) which taught the popular 4 bar repeated pattern often punctuated with a break in Blues music. And Trampy taught a musicality workshop for Ceroc here at the weekend. I''m lucky to have a musical background which means I should in theory have a pretty good sense of these things even if I can't apply them all that well yet! I'm like theres a break coming up at the end of this bar, now how do I hit it, oh darn now I'm facing the wrong way

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Maybe in 2009 one of their weekenders will have 80% WCS theme or be just a WCS weekender although given lack of teachers etc maybe by 2010 ?
    Well, in about a month in Weston one of their weekenders will be just a WCS weekender.

    Southport never will be 100% WCS. There simply aren't enough people dancing it in this country to make it economically viable.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    WCS starts teaching you basic dance fundamentals that are NEVER taught in an ordinary CEROC class, maybe there not even taught in a workshop.

    WCS starts to teach you musicality, whether you get it is another matter.
    I am unsure whether any one in Ceroc teaches a Musicality workshop where they mention 32 bar frases of music? etc
    WCS will start teaching you about footwork, the different parts of the foot that can be engaged within the dance, did you know there are twelve parts of the foot and only ten parts could be used!!!
    In all the WCS classes and workshops I've done (and I've done a good few, with lots of different teachers, though admittedly, not a full year and a half's worth) I can't think of any dance fundamentals that I have not already been taught at a Ceroc-run class or workshop in some form or other.

    At Ceroc classes and workshops I've been taught about musicality (bars, phrases, all that stuff), connection, tension, compression, timing, syncopation, and footwork.

    That said, this stuff about the 12 parts of the foot is new to me – I don't think I've heard about it in any WCS or MJ class. I've never seen it mentioned here either. Can you tell us some more about it?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
    Ceroc will never wither and die due to WCS.





    Please note I love Jiving it has brought me great happiness and lots of joy, I have even met a rather quiet young lady

    WCS has now given me a newchallenge.

    I'll stop rambling now, over and out
    WCS,WCS,WCS. lalalalala

    i'm glad WCS has given you a new challenge, the young lady you met, must be boaring and not challenging you then how's your comfort zone

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post




    What is MJ ? Is it a dance that needs WCS to improve and survive ? Better dancers wont attend because there is no WCS ?? This patronising 'move on' to WCS etc...








    Hey I started in ceroc

    Then after a 6 weeks I was too good for that so I went and did WCS

    3 weeks after that I did a real dance Tango and learnt what real dancing is

    I think the above maybe true and there is nothing wrong with that thought.....

    but then they say when there doing the Tango, hey I want to go back to ceroc and make it like Tango because Tango is 10 times better then that crap Ceroc.
    go Steve !


    So when are you going to step up to WCS

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Without WCS we have no musicality
    I hope this is you been sarcy.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    so when are you going to take the quiet one to a weekender the one you were with when i met you was fletch

    i'm shocked, you just wait till the next time
    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    Well, in about a month in Weston one of their weekenders will be just a WCS weekender.

    Southport never will be 100% WCS
    . There simply aren't enough people dancing it in this country to make it economically viable.
    thank goodness for that. I can sleep tonight

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    That said, this stuff about the 12 parts of the foot is new to me – I don't think I've heard about it in any WCS or MJ class. I've never seen it mentioned here either. Can you tell us some more about it?
    From what I remember - and I may well be wrong - you're basically sectioning your foot into a grid* four long and three wide.

    Various parts of the foot are used for different things. The main part of the ball of your foot (just back a little from your first three toes) is the part you press through when moving forward to keep balanced and help maintain posture. It's also the most powerful stepping point structrally speaking.

    The section to the forward part of the heel is where to settle the weight to be upright. It looks tidier and I'd guess tends to force your movements to be generated from the centre more than they might otherwise.

    Checking (or instantaneously redirecting your weight) is done with the inside edge of the ball of the foot. This is pretty close to just being the inside edge of the big toe in fact. It makes for nicer leg lines for a start, but is also the most efficient movement to get the desired result..

    When rolling your weight through the foot, you go toes - ball - arch/front of heel - rear of heel when stepping backward and the opposite when moving forward. This smoothes the motion out more than just stepping backward without thinking about it.

    Your weight should never move to the outside edge of your foot. It makes for ugly lines, it's hard to move from and more likely to cause injury. If you watch a lot of pro's carefully you can actually see a tiny amount of space under that edge of the foot, as if they're raising their little toe off the ground.

    I'm quite happy to have someone with a more in depth understanding come and correct me, but this is my understanding and I don't think I'm far from the mark if anything I've said here is wrong. I'm sure there's plenty more detail that can be added.

    I hope some of this makes sense....


    *In hindsight, a grid isn't really accurate as some of the sections are smaller than others and the alignment isn't really even, but it get's the point across fairly well and quickly.

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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    In all the WCS classes and workshops I've done (and I've done a good few, with lots of different teachers, though admittedly, not a full year and a half's worth) I can't think of any dance fundamentals that I have not already been taught at a Ceroc-run class or workshop in some form or other.

    At Ceroc classes and workshops I've been taught about musicality (bars, phrases, all that stuff), connection, tension, compression, timing, syncopation, and footwork.

    That said, this stuff about the 12 parts of the foot is new to me – I don't think I've heard about it in any WCS or MJ class. I've never seen it mentioned here either. Can you tell us some more about it?
    I wish I had been to your work shops as I have never been taught the above, may be if I had my WCS would have been so much better.

    I am Glad NZ Monkey has stepped as I would never have been so succinct

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    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Re: Should ceroc embrace WCS or stick to its core values

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    ...At present Southport can put on half WCS classes and half Jive classes and not cater for the beginner, it doesn’t have a brand to protect/promote
    ...
    That’s fine it does what it says on the tin. If you go to Southport in June you expect 50% WCS type classes.
    That would need a very broad definition of WCS type.

    The schedules for the past year or so, which have been posted here, show either 4 or 5 WCS workshops out of more than 40 which is either a little above or a little below 10% of the total.

    Other than slotted / smooth jive type stuff there isn't much that looks like WCS; Ceroc probably has more of that type of class.

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