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Thread: who is intermediate etc?

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    who is intermediate etc?

    This thread got me thinking what makes someone an advanced or even an intermediate dancer?

    When we were at the Storm weekender i went to a few workshops marked intermediate and intermediate + and found that quite a lot of the dancers really had a hard time picking up the moves or even the concept
    I have heard people who have only just moved up from the beginners lessons call themselves intermediate and was wondering if ceroc or any mj club should certificate people on their abilities making entry to some of the workshops only on production of the needed certificate or even do it with the membership card data base

    so i guess thats two questions really

    What do you lot think?

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    In my years of experience as a dancer per se, I have never known of a certification process. I seem to have read somewhere that in Australia Nicky Haslam used a card stamp system whereby whenever new dancers came to venues they would get their card stamped and once they reached a certain level they could then move to the next level of dancing.

    I think it is down to the individual dancer's choice whether they want to do the intermediate class. Teachers do stress (at the start of the second class) words to the effect of 'you need to have done six weeks or more to progress into the Intermediate class', so it is a case of forewarned is forearmed, but there will always be beginners who, for a laugh, will have a go, but nobody is forcing them.

    A greater promotion of workshops on style and technique would be a help and a recommendation. I took one after my first ever Ceroc class and proved beneficial. I can't really speak on behalf on anybody else and it is up to others how they wish to progress.

    best
    johnnyman

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyman View Post
    I think it is down to the individual dancer's choice whether they want to do the intermediate class.

    johnnyman
    but one mans meat is another mans poison ie when someone who clearly isnt capable of doing say an intermediate plus workshop they either hold back the rest of the class or worse still rip the muscles of other people when moving round in the line

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    This thread got me thinking what makes someone an advanced or even an intermediate dancer?

    When we were at the Storm weekender i went to a few workshops marked intermediate and intermediate + and found that quite a lot of the dancers really had a hard time picking up the moves or even the concept
    I have heard people who have only just moved up from the beginners lessons call themselves intermediate and was wondering if ceroc or any mj club should certificate people on their abilities making entry to some of the workshops only on production of the needed certificate or even do it with the membership card data base

    so i guess thats two questions really

    What do you lot think?

    This is an old can of worms. I have danced with ladies who have only been dancing a few weeks, who are fantasic follows, and other ladies who have been dancing for years, and the experience has left me feeling bruised and battered (and now I always avoid eye contact with them)

    New starters especially guys, tend to think the more moves they know the better they are as a dancer, even though many dance at one speed, regardless of the beat.

    There is no easy definition of what makes one intermediate or advanced. I personally am an experienced dancer, but many of my percetions have changed over the years. E.G. realising that doing half a dozen drops per track is not such a great thing . Now I might only do 3 or 4 drops in an entire evening! Use of breaks, musicality etc.

    I would say that if someone is a regular once a week cerocer that 6 months of regaulr class attendence should (as a rule) take them to an intermediate level. Those that dance more than once a week, and who also attend workshops/weekenders, will hopefully gain insight into musicality, and clarity of and laead/follow technique and will become more experienced/advanced over time.

    Onkar

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by onkar View Post
    This is an old can of worms. I have danced with ladies who have only been dancing a few weeks, who are fantasic follows, and other ladies who have been dancing for years, and the experience has left me feeling bruised and battered (and now I always avoid eye contact with them)


    Quote Originally Posted by onkar View Post
    There is no easy definition of what makes one intermediate or advanced. I personally am an experienced dancer, but many of my percetions have changed over the years. E.G. realising that doing half a dozen drops per track is not such a great thing . Now I might only do 3 or 4 drops in an entire evening! Use of breaks, musicality etc.

    I would say that if someone is a regular once a week cerocer that 6 months of regaulr class attendence should (as a rule) take them to an intermediate level. Those that dance more than once a week, and who also attend workshops/weekenders, will hopefully gain insight into musicality, and clarity of and laead/follow technique and will become more experienced/advanced over time.

    Onkar
    good answer to what in my mind is a complicated question rep on its way

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by onkar View Post
    This is an old can of worms. I have danced with ladies who have only been dancing a few weeks, who are fantasic follows, and other ladies who have been dancing for years, and the experience has left me feeling bruised and battered (and now I always avoid eye contact with them)



    There is no easy definition of what makes one intermediate or advanced. I personally am an experienced dancer, but many of my percetions have changed over the years. E.G. realising that doing half a dozen drops per track is not such a great thing . Now I might only do 3 or 4 drops in an entire evening! Use of breaks, musicality etc.



    Onkar
    Well now my lovely I seem to recall that you did 2 or 3 drops on me in a single dance last night..
    To the question...I would rate myself as a fairly good intermediate.

    I have at least 6 moves i can do to a reasonable standard.

    It is not about the moves it is about dancing to the music and connection with your partner.

    Onkar i need to work on my dips and drops technique so at the next dance can we have a little teaching from you to me.

    I can pay by way of hookers and drugs.

    DTS Dave XXX XX

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by onkar View Post
    There is no easy definition of what makes one intermediate or advanced. I personally am an experienced dancer, but many of my percetions have changed over the years. E.G. realising that doing half a dozen drops per track is not such a great thing . Now I might only do 3 or 4 drops in an entire evening! Use of breaks, musicality etc.
    Lot in that to agree with. I think the point that people miss is that you do an intermediate lesson on a MJ night to learn to become an intermediate. Some people take a few months, some years ... some never. What actualy constitutes an 'intermediate' is obviously open for debate as much what constitutes an 'advanced' dancer.

    My mind has been focused on the need to try to benchmark these differences after starting to do a similar process to grade our pool of BAs at work. I've got a template started for dancers as I'll be needing to when we finally get our workshop day sorted.

    Like many others, it BUGS THE HELL OUT OF ME when dancers join a workshop which is patently way out of their league. Having said that, unless dancers are given guideance as to what level of competence is expected for a workshop, how can you blame them? So ... once I get five minutes away from the day job I'll finish off the first draft and post it for comments .... and don the flack jacket

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Well now my lovely I seem to recall that you did 2 or 3
    Guilty, but then Dave, I did it for the benefit of the ladies that were watching.

    I think they enjoy watching you getting a taste of your own medicine .


    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Onkar i need to work on my dips and drops technique so at the next dance can we have a little teaching from you to me.

    I can pay by way of hookers and drugs.
    I hope that means you are not going to turn up in a dress and wig

    Onkar

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    ...unless dancers are given guideance as to what level of competence is expected for a workshop, how can you blame them?

    Personally I think that the blame should sit at the feet of those who run/organise/teach/publish the events (/workshops). If they state what skills are required and you get numpties who don't match up to it, then you can blame the people. Until that time, I could rate my self as beginner against some people, intermediate against others and advanced in different company. Each would be as valid as the next.

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    In the context of the majority of people who turn up for the classes at an average ceroc night, I'd expect an intermediate sort of level lead to be able to join in in the middle of the intermediate class and not have any problems walking through the routine.

    Sort of like Nigel's 'high speed moves' class last Southport where he started by saying 'Do a first move, sway and a basket to this track'. maybe 30% of the class seemed to drop out at this point (and he did walk through on stage so we didn't need to recognise the moves by name).

    Sean

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I could rate my self as beginner against some people, intermediate against others and advanced in different company. Each would be as valid as the next.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. Sometimes I can feel inferior to my partners abilities, other times on par and excel on others (although the latter doesn't happen that often). I think confidence pays a large part of it too.

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    In the context of the majority of people who turn up for the classes at an average ceroc night, I'd expect an intermediate sort of level lead to be able to join in in the middle of the intermediate class and not have any problems walking through the routine.
    In recent lessons I have done the intermediate as a follow then in the last twice through in to freestyle I took over as lead (with no prior run though) with ease. Does that make me intermediate then?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh View Post
    Sort of like Nigel's 'high speed moves' class last Southport where he started by saying 'Do a first move, sway and a basket to this track'. maybe 30% of the class seemed to drop out at this point (and he did walk through on stage so we didn't need to recognise the moves by name).

    Sean
    I think that was due to speed rather than the moves. Though I did rather enjoy that class!

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    For what it’s worth, a newbie follower’s point of view:

    Advanced dancers – wow, and get that funky timing thing…lurve it

    Beginners – the good ones have clear and firm leads…sometimes a bit painful, but at least you mostly know what they are doing

    Intermediate plus – clear leading…I won’t know all the moves but I’ve got a reasonable chance of getting them

    Intermediates…are they the ones who can do intermediate moves and expect you to know how you are supposed to follow them, without them actually leading you?

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    For what it’s worth, a newbie follower’s point of view:

    Advanced dancers – wow, and get that funky timing thing…lurve it

    Beginners – the good ones have clear and firm leads…sometimes a bit painful, but at least you mostly know what they are doing

    Intermediate plus – clear leading…I won’t know all the moves but I’ve got a reasonable chance of getting them

    Intermediates…are they the ones who can do intermediate moves and expect you to know how you are supposed to follow them, without them actually leading you?
    I'll blow my own trumpet and put myself at Intermediate plus!

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    I'll blow my own trumpet and put myself at Intermediate plus!
    Why do I have an evil idea about what fun it would be to run an impromtu 'assessment' session at a freestyle. Imagine the furore when people were marked down well below the standard they thought they were

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Why do I have an evil idea about what fun it would be to run an impromtu 'assessment' session at a freestyle. Imagine the furore when people were marked down well below the standard they thought they were
    I do know what level I'm at and it's now where near where I blow my instrument...

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Always a difficult subject on where you think you are yourself or where others are when it comes to a specified level.
    Standards are different around the country. Most venues just do a beginners class and an 'intermediate' class, some venues have introduced an advance or intermediate plus class so there is a good chance that the dancers at those venues have a better idea than the majority of where they are standard wise.
    Other dance styles use certificates, medals, card systems as a way of rewarding dancers to level achievements but I think (tho not sure) that would be against Ceroc ethos and IMHO could put off potential customers.
    Weekenders - I think one of the ways of restricting numbers on certain classes where you need to be advanced or intermedaite plus is to have a booking system pairs only. (classes still rotate but equal amount m/f).
    I know its would be a pain and seen to be unfair to some but I am sure if you really wanted to do an advanced class you could find a partner.
    The fact that you have to do this could put quite a few off and also gives the chance for the person who takes the booking to confirm and explain the type of lesson and standard to be taught before they put their names to paper.


    As for me....I am just an average MJ club dancer who likes to have fun.
    Last edited by jemessex; 13th-March-2008 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Why do I have an evil idea about what fun it would be to run an impromtu 'assessment' session at a freestyle. Imagine the furore when people were marked down well below the standard they thought they were
    Now that my lover is a brilliant idea.

    We as dancers have no professional opinion of our standard of dance.

    Gus you is a GENIUS and a very attractive man....Dont think we havent noticed, because we have.

    DTS Dave XXX XXX

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by dave the scaffolder View Post
    Now that my lover is a brilliant idea.

    We as dancers have no professional opinion of our standard of dance.
    BUT ... as Brian said in the Life of Brian, judge not or yea shall be judged!

    So ... ignoring that, who wants to be on the roving judging panel, issuing (meaningless) assessment throughout the known world.

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    BUT ... as Brian said in the Life of Brian, judge not or yea shall be judged!

    So ... ignoring that, who wants to be on the roving judging panel, issuing (meaningless) assessment throughout the known world.
    I'll take an online assessment right now.

    (I think)

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