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Thread: who is intermediate etc?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    I'll take an online assessment right now.

    (I think)
    You have been ASSESSED. You dance at Ceroc Nantwich. That is your crime ..... it is also your punishment. (apologies to Red Dwarf)

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    You have been ASSESSED. You dance at Ceroc Nantwich. That is your crime ..... it is also your punishment. (apologies to Red Dwarf)
    I will from next Tuesday as I'm apparently unbanned!

    Will I see you there? ;-)

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    Papa Smurf
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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    I have heard people who have only just moved up from the beginners lessons call themselves intermediate and was wondering if ceroc or any mj club should certificate people on their abilities making entry to some of the workshops only on production of the needed certificate or even do it with the membership card data base
    Yes clubs should certify people. Over here where they don't though, a poor level of dance ability is not the fault of beginners jumping into the intermediate classes - thats what they see everyone else do and they think its the best way to get ahead. And here, it is

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyman View Post
    [B]I think it is down to the individual dancer's choice whether they want to do the intermediate class.
    It really shouldn't be, if dancers knew what they were talking about they wouldn't bump themselves up to a level they can't handle

    Anyway, Martin wasn't talking about normal classes, he was talking about weekender classes that are billed at a certain level with no attempt to check that level, making "intermediate" mean "everyone who can dance all the way through one song without stopping and above" Which is fair enough I suppose, thats the way it works here. Its perhaps a bit much when "advanced" classes are like that too, but usually they do have enough scare factor that the odd overwhelmed intermediate quickly sits out

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Anyway, Martin wasn't talking about normal classes, he was talking about weekender classes that are billed at a certain level
    I knew i meant something like that thanks for the explanation DS lol
    And of course your right IMHO the problem starts with a ceroc class where it is announced every week that the taxis and the beginners practice session are there for people who have been for 6 wks and under meaning anyone who has been more than 6 wks should attend what is called the intermediate class which normally ends up being two or three improver moves (because the improvers cant learn intermediate moves) and perhaps if your lucky one intermediate
    So then when an improver goes to a weekender and sees int or int+ in the program they think that means the same and that anyone who has been for more than 6 wks could do the class easily.
    This ends with the true intermediates who are trying to learn themselves having to work as taxis

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    And of course your right IMHO the problem starts with a ceroc class where it is announced every week that the taxis and the beginners practice session are there for people who have been for 6 wks and under meaning anyone who has been more than 6 wks should attend what is called the intermediate class which normally ends up being two or three improver moves (because the improvers cant learn intermediate moves) and perhaps if your lucky one intermediate
    So then when an improver goes to a weekender and sees int or int+ in the program they think that means the same and that anyone who has been for more than 6 wks could do the class easily.
    This ends with the true intermediates who are trying to learn themselves having to work as taxis
    I think this is the root of the problem.

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Until there are defined criteria, then it's essentially impossible to say who is of what standard with any sense of reliability or validity. As a consequence, without criteria, the assessment is entirely subjective. This is true of any system or process of assessment. In ceroc, it's equally true of classes and of competitions.

    For example, I can watch or dance with someone who I know is a good dancer, but see a range of things they do badly. That's because those things are things I consider important. That doesn't mean I'm right... Most importantly, it doesn't mean anyone is right in assessing their own (or anyone else's) dancing, because "right" is not defined.

    Personally, I think this is a bad thing. The only criteria consistently mentioned for moving to an intermediate class is "six or more lessons". This isn't particularly useful and, in any case, is not enforced. There is a vague criteria about knowing the beginner's moves - a set of about 19 moves, if I recall properly. But this is similarly non-useful.

    I would like to see some criteria defined for an intermediate dancer. Introducing assessment is a big step, but if ceroc started by defining not just the moves that an intermediate dancer should know, but the other dance relevant skills: rhythm, controlled spinning, lead and follow, etc. I've danced at ceroc venues that do this, and it definitely improves the standard of dancing (and of teaching...) by any criteria one could name.

    In ballroom/latin, there is a very clear syllabus for each level and the standard and skills that should be learnt at each level. And this is very closely aligned with the formal judging criteria for competitions. You sit an exam to progress from one level to the next. These exams are international and allow you to know your standard at any ballroom venue in the world.

    Ceroc will never be as formalised as ballroom - and shouldn't aspire to be. Part of what makes ceroc distinctive if the more casual attitude. But I think there are things to be learnt. And a first step would be to agree and publish some basic standards for intermediate and advanced dancers.

  7. #27
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Ceroc will never be as formalised as ballroom - and shouldn't aspire to be. Part of what makes ceroc distinctive if the more casual attitude. But I think there are things to be learnt. And a first step would be to agree and publish some basic standards for intermediate and advanced dancers.

    I could not agree with you more

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyman View Post
    In my years of experience as a dancer per se, I have never known of a certification process. I seem to have read somewhere that in Australia Nicky Haslam used a card stamp system whereby whenever new dancers came to venues they would get their card stamped and once they reached a certain level they could then move to the next level of dancing.

    In the UK, good luck... anyone can join in any category.

    In Australia, it is a sport.. so in some companies you have to "prove" what you do before you move up.

    Rather like the Salsa classes I attended many years ago in Brighton... you got assesed and put into the class that was right for you.

    A few companies in Aussie are strict with this. You might think after 2 years you are intermediate, but on assesment you are beginner, in our world...

    Tough, but that is the way it is...

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    Re: who is intermediate etc?

    The self assessment and move up after six weeks seems to be a factor in the accessible world of MJ. Certainly when I went to Lindy hop and Salsa classes regularly, moving up a level was at the invitation of the teacher.

    At a weekender I went to last year (abroad), everybody was assessed individually by the teachers. Whilst this was great from the point of view of everyone getting the right level of instruction, there were some ruffled feathers when people didn't meet their own perceived grade and more so when some couples were asessed to be at different levels and were asked to either split, or stay together at the lower level.
    Last edited by Rhythm King; 17th-March-2008 at 11:27 AM. Reason: Spooling moostaque

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