Do advanced dancers 'suffer more' than average dancers dancing with beginners

[Gadget]

Do advanced and/or very advanced dancers, in fact ,have a harder time dancing with beginners, compared with average dancers ?

Nope. However people who think on themselves in these terms might.

As a dancer progresses, they can read more and more subtle connections between themselve and their partner. Some dancers then think that there is no place for "loud" connections and "shouting" at your partner through the connection: instead of creating a balanced connection between partners, they lighten their end and expect/apply subtle signals. However desirable you may want the connection to be, it is unbalanced and a very poor dance if one partner is not communicating with the other.

Most of the perceived "harder time" is down to becoming more aware of things; the depth of your ignorance growing as the bredth of your knowledge expands.

Personally I get a kick out of dancing. Full stop.
With a beginner, it's a challenge to test my lead. With an improver it's a chance to stretch them and make sure my lead is constant no matter what I am leading. An intermediate I start playing with the music more. More advanced dancers I listen more to them and use their movements in mine. I do all these things no matter who I am leading - I just shift the emphisis.

I understand that it is different for leads and followers (a fact that was highlighted to me when discussing hi-jacks and sabotage a while ago) and there is only so much a follower can do without disrupting the lead.

[Little Monkey]

I think the above quote sums me up nicely!

I'm happy to dance with beginners but when a really great bit of music comes on, if I'm honest, I'd rather dancing flat out and expressing the music, than doing beginner moves.

I know its not the PC answer but I'm just being honest!

Tsk, tsk.... Absolutely not PC. But spot on for me too!

As I've said in numerous similar discussions before - I'd actually rather sit out than dance to one of my favourite pieces of music with a beginner..... I just get soooooooooooo frustrated just doing beginners moves (badly led, with no tension in the arms.....) to a really good piece of music. I'd rather dance with beginners to music I find really dull. Sorry.

[straycat]

Some dancers then think that there is no place for "loud" connections and "shouting" at your partner through the connection: instead of creating a balanced connection between partners, they lighten their end and expect/apply subtle signals.

I'm one of the advocates of lightening the lead when dancing with an extremely forceful follower - but my reasons aren't quite as stated - generally, if one uses more force to lead a forceful follow, she'll follow suit. I have two reasons for wanting to avoid this - one: I'm a delicate individual with a very fragile back - and a forceful connection is a sure-fire way to aggravate my back problems. Two: I can communicate far better with a lighter connection - and this almost always results in a better dance. In the same way that a more forceful lead evokes a more forceful follow, lightening it usually meets with a lighter follow. It's not a simple case of lightening my lead to a point where she can't 'hear' it, and letting her sink or swim - it's a case of experimenting until we get a balance we're both happy with.

Do I 'suffer' more with beginners? Mmm - no. I wouldn't say so. Every single dance I have has a strong element of experimentation - what works, what I can lead, how my partner responds if I try X... it's exactly the same process, no matter the experience level of my partner. This only becomes a ... less than positive ... experience when I'm dancing with a partner who just doesn't seem that interested in these processes (or one who keeps trying to tear my arms off) - and that can happen at any level (although rarely, thank goodness)

[straycat]

I'm happy to dance with beginners but when a really great bit of music comes on, if I'm honest, I'd rather dancing flat out and expressing the music, than doing beginner moves.

This is one of the things that makes me glad to be a leader. I think we have a much better deal on this score...

[killingtime]

I find that dancing with a newbie or beginner is just as satisfying as dancing with an accomplished follower. All partners require my concentration, as I don't find it natural, and I dedicate this 4minutes to my partner. It's down to me to give leadable moves and when completed successfully both of us are pleased.

I don't. An accomplished follower can take the dance to a place that I never would have dreamed of with a newbie. It's one of the reasons I go to Southport and such... I can have those dreamy dances that I still think about now .

This isn't to say I don't enjoy dancing with beginners. Sometimes seeing that cheerful look of someone who is first discovering the basics of dancing can be so satisfying. Seeing someone's skills progress in the space of an evening can be great too and it can be more rewarding to lead a beginner well than lead an accomplished follower well.

I know its not the PC answer but I'm just being honest!

I get where you are coming from. Obviously leads get it easier in this regard but I sometimes feel the same when a particular track comes on that you know the right follower could just make amazing.

[Trouble]

It depends where i am to be honest.

If im at Stevenage for example, there are a lot of beginners there. If you dont dance with them, you dont dance much full stop. I actually danced with a number of male beginners last night and i have to be honest, it was fun. They make you feel good and as somebody else said, it reminds me of when i first started. They are so keen to learn and I can make their night all that much better if i just show them that dancing is fun and not be taken seriously. Its the feel good factor i spose.

But as Lory said, when a fave bit of music comes on, i do try and grab somebody i know will give me a great dance so that i can show them my enthusiasm and fun factor.

[martingold]

But as Lory said, when a fave bit of music comes on, i do try and grab somebody i know will give me a great dance so that i can show them my enthusiasm and fun factor.

you be careful about grabbing people and showing them your enthusiasm

[killingtime]

you be careful about grabbing people and showing them your enthusiasm

Surely that's more about checking their enthusiasm?

[martingold]

Surely that's more about checking their enthusiasm?

best not reply otherwise this thread will be heading upstairs

[Moondancer]

Reading the various posts about how non-beginners feel about dancing with beginners has been really helpful. I haven’t felt confident about giving anyone a good dance yet, but I feel a whole lot better knowing that dancing with a beginner doesn’t automatically make for a bad or boring experience.

Are there any clues to knowing what your (polite) partner really feels about the dance you just shared? - other than asking you back, which I think would be unreasonable to expect as there would be many other people they would want to dance with.

[Trouble]

Reading the various posts about how non-beginners feel about dancing with beginners has been really helpful. I haven’t felt confident about giving anyone a good dance yet, but I feel a whole lot better knowing that dancing with a beginner doesn’t automatically make for a bad or boring experience.

Are there any clues to knowing what your (polite) partner really feels about the dance you just shared? - other than asking you back, which I think would be unreasonable to expect as there would be many other people they would want to dance with.

A good sign that a partner enjoyed your dance is smiling i think. if they are smiling and appear to be enjoying themselves there you go. Another great compliment is them asking for another.

[killingtime]

Another great compliment is them asking for another.

I think this can be misleading. I'll sometimes ask for a second because I felt I did poorly in the first one and know I can do better. I'll often have amazing dances that I won't follow up with a second in fear that the magic of the first has somehow gone and I don't want to some how taint what I had.

[Trouble]

I think this can be misleading. I'll sometimes ask for a second because I felt I did poorly in the first one and know I can do better. I'll often have amazing dances that I won't follow up with a second in fear that the magic of the first has somehow gone and I don't want to some how taint what I had.

yes i understand that but for me, if somebody asks you again, even at different nights or venues, it means I must be doing something right. I also understand that there are other reasons why you might not get another dance due to being busy or not got round to it.

[Steven666]

Reading the various posts about how non-beginners feel about dancing with beginners has been really helpful. I haven’t felt confident about giving anyone a good dance yet, but I feel a whole lot better knowing that dancing with a beginner doesn’t automatically make for a bad or boring experience.

Are there any clues to knowing what your (polite) partner really feels about the dance you just shared? - other than asking you back, which I think would be unreasonable to expect as there would be many other people they would want to dance with.

Blimey your making good sensible posts. Would rep you again if I could.

Some of my best dances in a night can be with beginners as it's about the experience you are giving then rather than you seem which give yourself more enjoyment (if that makes sense).

As for clues - wording of feedback, do they ask you again, facial expression.

But don't rely on those. If you want the truth, just ask for it. Easier said than done though...

[MartinHarper]

I don't find that I 'suffer more' following a beginner than leading a beginner. If I know that I'm only going to be lead first moves, man spins, and returns, there's a lot of "play time" in there. It's not as much fun as dancing with experienced leads, of course, but I don't feel restricted from expressing the music.

[Chef]

Are there any clues to knowing what your (polite) partner really feels about the dance you just shared? - other than asking you back, which I think would be unreasonable to expect as there would be many other people they would want to dance with.
[/SIZE]

If you haven't enjoyed your dance with a beginner then the best thing that a polite non beginner could do is to do your very best not to show that. A very experienced dancer can know after a few seconds of seeing a person dance that they are a beginner. So when they ask you to dance they pretty much know what they are getting already and are prepared for that. You just try to give the beginner the best dance that you can, be encouraging without being patronising, don't pull them through moves that they are struggling with or are slower than the music on. You need to guide and nurture them rather than bamboozle them in an effort to show off to them.

What you must not do is to discourage or belittle them. So no matter what sort of dance the experienced dancer expects you always ask them to dance politely and courteously and after the dance you always thank them for the dance. Just because you have more experience or are a more skilled dancer doesn't allow you forget that beginner you have just danced with has human dignity.

As for knowing what your partner honestly thinks about the dance you just shared then I think that the only real way is to ask them the direct question

BUT

1) Don't ask if you don't think you could handle the truth - you may not like what you hear.

2) Only ask someone who you think would be able to be considerate to your feelings. You need to get to know their character before you ask.

3) Limit them by asking for the ONE most important thing that you could change to make your dancing better. The last thing you want is to get a whole list of things to improve. That would just crush your spirit, making the whole thing seem impossible. Getting ONE thing to work on at a time is more achievable.

On the last two points it would seem that your class teacher would be the very best person to ask.

[Astro]

As for knowing what your partner honestly thinks about the dance you just shared then I think that the only real way is to ask them the direct question

BUT

1) Don't ask if you don't think you could handle the truth - you may not like what you hear.

2) Only ask someone who you think would be able to be considerate to your feelings. You need to get to know their character before you ask.

3) Limit them by asking for the ONE most important thing that you could change to make your dancing better. The last thing you want is to get a whole list of things to improve. That would just crush your spirit, making the whole thing seem impossible. Getting ONE thing to work on at a time is more achievable.

On the last two points it would seem that your class teacher would be the very best person to ask.

I don't ask because, if you've both just finished a dance, I feel as if the lead might think I'm fishing for compliments - when in fact, I'd want to know how I can improve.


Do other follows ask for feedback?
And do you get serious feedback that is useful?

[David Franklin]

Do other follows ask for feedback?
And do you get serious feedback that is useful?

Not that I really dance at a level where I could give much useful feedback, but advice I've heard from several teachers and it makes sense to me:

If you want feedback, let your partner know before the dance. Unless there's something glaringly wrong with your dancing, chances are they'll be thinking about making the dance work, not about what your problems are.

Similarly, if you're having trouble with a particular topic, tell them that before. If I'm social dancing and a move doesn't work right - chances are I'll just avoid leading it again that dance. Whereas if you wanted feedback on it, I'll do it several times trying to work out what the problem is.

(I've actually been in the second situation with people wanting help on a drop. Very useful to know before hand, as I wouldn't normally lead the same drop 6 times in one track - particularly if it didn't go well the 1st time!).

[killingtime]

If you want feedback, let your partner know before the dance. Unless there's something glaringly wrong with your dancing, chances are they'll be thinking about making the dance work, not about what your problems are.

Great advice. I've been asked a couple of times after a dance and not had anything to say because I wasn't spending the dance working out what my partner could do to improve their dancing.

[Moondancer]

...Very helpful responses and good advice from these posts, and I will try asking the odd man (no, perhaps I mean "occasional" rather than "odd") for some feedback before I dance. My spirit is very crushable at this stage so I'll be careful who I ask!

I think this can be misleading. I'll sometimes ask for a second because I felt I did poorly in the first one and know I can do better. I'll often have amazing dances that I won't follow up with a second in fear that the magic of the first has somehow gone and I don't want to some how taint what I had.

It never occurred to me before that I might get a second dance because the first WASN'T good, or that I might not get a second because the first WAS. Is this way of looking at things usual?