Do advanced dancers 'suffer more' than average dancers dancing with beginners

[frodo]

...I’ve noticed that the best dancers are NEVER that patronising, even though they must surely be suffering vastly more than ...Mr Average...

Do advanced and/or very advanced dancers, in fact ,have a harder time dancing with beginners, compared with average dancers ?

One comment that stuck in my mind was a high level female teacher saying she had only really arrived when she could have an enjoyable dance with anyone.

[MartinHarper]

Certainly as I've gained more experience leading I've had better success with beginner follows and got more out of each dance.
On the other hand, I probably don't dance with beginner follows as much as I used to.

[NZ Monkey]

Do advanced and/or very advanced dancers, in fact ,have a harder time dancing with beginners, compared with average dancers ?

One comment that stuck in my mind was a high level female teacher saying she had only really arrived when she could have an enjoyable dance with anyone.

I’m a little confused as to what you’re asking here Frodo.

Do you mean:

1. Do advanced dancers find it harder dancing with beginner dancers than a typical intermediate does dancing with a beginner?

Or

2. Do advanced dancers find it harder dancing with beginners than dancing with intermediates?

[Gary]

I’m a little confused as to what you’re asking here Frodo...

Can I guess that what Frodo is asking is: when advanced dancers are with beginners, do they find (even more than intermediate dancers do) that there is stuff they would normally do that doesn't work, and so do they (more than intermediate dancers do) get frustrated?

My guess at an answer would be that compared with intermediate dancers, the advanced dancers would be better able to make the dance with the beginner be the best it can possibly be (the advanced dancer presumably can lead better, find more styling opportunities, follow better, ...) and so the advanced dancer would be _less_ frustrated than the intermediate dancer.

[frodo]

1. Do advanced dancers find it harder dancing with beginner dancers than a typical intermediate does dancing with a beginner?

Sorry, lack of clarity. Option 1.

when advanced dancers are with beginners do they... (more than intermediate dancers do) get frustrated?

Wish I'd used the term frustrated.

[NZ Monkey]

My guess at an answer would be that compared with intermediate dancers, the advanced dancers would be better able to make the dance with the beginner be the best it can possibly be (the advanced dancer presumably can lead better, find more styling opportunities, follow better, ...) and so the advanced dancer would be _less_ frustrated than the intermediate dancer.

While I think there’s little doubt that an advanced dancer will be better able to lead or follow a beginner than an intermediate one, the question is whether they will get more frustrated doing so. I suppose it comes down to the dancers temperament more than anything else.

Speaking for myself (…and assuming I can pass myself off as “advanced”… ) I find I get more frustrated dancing with beginners now than I did 18 months ago. While I’m happy to keep things nice and simple for my partner, I find the music often calls for something they are not ready for yet so I have to keep myself in check. Consequently while I’m happy to dance with beginners I prefer to do so when I find the music dull. It isn’t usually the beginner themselves that I get frustrated with, but not being able to dance to the music as well as I’d like.

[Martin]

Can I guess that what Frodo is asking is: when advanced dancers are with beginners, do they find (even more than intermediate dancers do) that there is stuff they would normally do that doesn't work, and so do they (more than intermediate dancers do) get frustrated?

My guess at an answer would be that compared with intermediate dancers, the advanced dancers would be better able to make the dance with the beginner be the best it can possibly be (the advanced dancer presumably can lead better, find more styling opportunities, follow better, ...) and so the advanced dancer would be _less_ frustrated than the intermediate dancer.

I am an advanced dancer, I don't get frustrated dancing with beginners, and I am not rude to them!

I dance at the level they can manage. Which I think most advanced dancers do.

I find the advanced dancers I know (including the wonderful Gary ) only try to encorage and do not have anything to "prove" by putting the blame on others.

[Steven666]

I’m a little confused as to what you’re asking here Frodo.

Do you mean:

1. Do advanced dancers find it harder dancing with beginner dancers than a typical intermediate does dancing with a beginner?

Or

2. Do advanced dancers find it harder dancing with beginners than dancing with intermediates?

Or which level of dancer gets more out of dancing with beginers?

Answer. It shouldn't matter.

[robd]

Swapping the term 'experienced' for 'advanced' makes me happier to answer the question. I find my dance experience 'suffers more' now if dancing with beginners than it did when I had been dancing MJ for 6 or 12 months say. This is not to say I cannot or will not dance with beginners though it's true that I rarely attend MJ classes now and most of the places I do dance MJ probably have a higher proportion of experienced and accomplished dancers than the norm.

I find the experience suffers more because I find it very difficult to adapt my lead and compensate for the lack of arm tension, confident footwork, ability to turn on beat and solid frame that is usually and quite naturally present in a beginner. I get so used to working with these elements in my dancing that I find myself a bit lost faced with a follower who doesn't have them. I also find sometimes that these ladies do not enjoy dancing with me as it is quite a different experience to their usual partners and they sometimes feel that they are letting me down by not being able to follow when in fact I, as the more experienced party, ought be able to provide a lead suitable to their experience and ability.

[Lory]

I’m happy to dance with beginners but I prefer to do so when I find the music dull. It isn’t usually the beginner themselves that I get frustrated with, but not being able to dance to the music as well as I’d like.

I think the above quote sums me up nicely!

I'm happy to dance with beginners but when a really great bit of music comes on, if I'm honest, I'd rather dancing flat out and expressing the music, than doing beginner moves.

I know its not the PC answer but I'm just being honest!

[Twirly]

Am not an advanced dancer by any means, though I have a little bit of experience now. The only time I get a bit fed up of dancing with beginners is if I wind up dancing with too many of them in an evening. Bearing in mind that on a normal class night I probably only dance about 50% of the time in freestyle anyway, a few complete beginner dances (those who are there for the first or second time) where they know a max of 3 moves (and all of them only know the same moves!) can get a bit monotonous

Happened recently at a venue I don't go to regularly. I did my best to be encouraging and smiled a lot, picked up on what they were doing well, etc. Then went and tracked down a couple of people I knew to be very good dancers to get my interest/enjoyment levels for the evening back up to standard!

Curious as to how it varies for leads and follows though. Obviously both of us have to pare down our dancing so as not to scare the inexperienced partner. As a lead, presumably you have more control over what happens than you do a follow, whilst as a follow you might have more opportunity to express yourself in the dance if you can do it without disrupting the lead…

[NZ Monkey]

....whilst as a follow you might have more opportunity to express yourself in the dance if you can do it without disrupting the lead…

I've found that anything an experienced follower does to express herself can throw a beginner leader. They usually don't know enough yet to really feel a connection at all, and are more likely to get confused if you do something they don't expect.

At least, that's how I remember it....

[dep]

I'm stealing this post from another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondancer
I’ve noticed that the best dancers are NEVER that patronising, even though they must surely be suffering vastly more from dancing with me than Mr Average has suffered.

not true.
It's up to the lead to recognise the level and capability of the follower.
Throughout it is a partnership and if the lead is doing his job properly BOTH will enjoy the dance.
I find that dancing with a newbie or beginner is just as satisfying as dancing with an accomplished follower. All partners require my concentration, as I don't find it natural, and I dedicate this 4minutes to my partner. It's down to me to give leadable moves and when completed successfully both of us are pleased.
If a move is poorly executed but keeps flowing I will move on without comment. If the move comes to a halt, I will assess if my Follower is willing to listen and then maybe explain where she should be and try again a few moves later. Usually I will take even more care to LEAD her through the problem move and success is rewarded with yet another smile, or better a big grin! This really makes ME focus on leading, sometimes to the detriment of connection.

BTW,
I'm not advanced, I'm a very slow learning intermediate that takes about two months to hone a new move.

[dep]

I've found that anything an experienced follower does to express herself can throw a beginner leader. They usually don't know enough yet to really feel a connection at all, and are more likely to get confused if you do something they don't expect.

At least, that's how I remember it....

I think for two years I did not recognise nor react to hi-jacks. All my Followers gave up on me and let the machine carry on in robotic style.
Franck did a fun class at a Perth party. It was Hi-jacks, a revelation!
Slowly, my partners are beginning to realise I can "listen" and interpret the music/mood for me. Interpretation is certainly my weakest attribute.

As for the confusion that a pause/hi-jack/slowing causes, then definitely. As beginner I did not know what was happening and could not see where I was going wrong.

[Twirly]

I've found that anything an experienced follower does to express herself can throw a beginner leader. They usually don't know enough yet to really feel a connection at all, and are more likely to get confused if you do something they don't expect.

At least, that's how I remember it....

I'm talking pretty minimal... wiggling slightly, using your spare arm, etc. So far, they've seemed to cope!

[Steven666]

All partners require my concentration

Blimely. I can't remember the last time I actually concentrated in a dance.

BTW,
I'm not advanced, I'm a very slow learning intermediate that takes about two months to hone a new move.

It's taken me the last six months to add one move to my repetoire (the last being the reverse continuous pretzel). In which time I have forgotten a lot more that I used to know!

[Spiky Steve]

I have been dancing for three years and enjoy dancing with people of all levels.

I love dancing with complete beginners in the main room. Their enthusiasm is great and reminds me of mine when I first started. It's all great to see them progress and build a dance relationship with somone.

I actually suffer more when dancing with some of the best dancers in the blues room. I sometimes find it hard to relax with the first dance especially if they run off to dance with a teacher at the end of a first dance. It's not great for confidence. I have a long memory and don't ask again and why I stick mainly to people I know well in the blues room.

Steve

[David Franklin]

I find the experience suffers more because I find it very difficult to adapt my lead and compensate for the lack of arm tension, confident footwork, ability to turn on beat and solid frame that is usually and quite naturally present in a beginner. I get so used to working with these elements in my dancing that I find myself a bit lost faced with a follower who doesn't have them.

Over the last year (since fatherhood!), I've had the experience of moving from dancing mainly at dance "hotspots" (FunkyLush, Hammersmith, etc) to dancing at my nearest venue, which has only been going about 18 months, so that most of the dancers are relatively inexperienced. And when I started, I literally could not lead a first move with maybe 30-50% of the followers. I'd try to lead them to my side, and they'd hardly cover any ground, and be left miles away for the turn out. I actually asked the taxi-dancers for advice: they didn't really suggest much other than "you'll get used to it". Which turns out to be true - although I'm not really sure what I've changed (I think I move more rather than expecting them to come to me, but I'm not sure).

I've also helped teach a class and found I no longer do many (any?) of the beginners moves in 'approved' fashion (for example, I generally put my right hand more at "just under the shoulder blade" height rather than hip height). Doing it "by the book" took a bit of adjusting to.

I do sometimes think the way the dance has evolved means that "MJ as danced by beginners" and "MJ as danced by advanced dancers" are very different things. So there's no reason to expect someone who's a great "advanced lead" to be a great "beginners' lead" and vice-versa. (Same for follows, of course).

[ElaineB]

Interesting thread this one! Presonally, I enjoy the odd dance with beginners and get quite a buzz out of trying to follow well. There are some who aren't that good, but if they can dance to the beat, then I let them off the more 'technical' elements. If they are trying to lead something and it hasn't worked, then a gentle pointer in the right direction is usually welcomed. I will also give them words of encouragement - if they are a promsing lead, or dance on the beat, then I will tell them.

Elaine

[Daisy Chain]

Occasionally, a dance partner (not always a beginner) can make me look and feel like an absolute beginner (for all the wrong reasons)

Daisy

(An Horrified Little Flower)