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Thread: Cricitising your dance partner.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    well it is really. ive stated learning lead and do the classes as a lead. I get the beginners and the women that are awful but with a little patience and guidance, i can lead them. Its just a matter of them understanding body positioning and the signs to look for. Newbies are so nervous and are always apologising but i really do think to myself, its my fault your not doing it, im not leading you correctly or guiding you into the right position.
    And that was my thoughts after a short time leading. But after years of leading at all levels of follow, it's not what I think now.

    True you can get lazy and not lead clearly enough, but you can lead the same way to another beginner yet they get it.

    But follows are not perfect and do make mistakes if unknowly. They aren't always told when they do and a good lead will make it flow so they don't even know they made a mistake as they covered it up.

    It's also like saying, leads never have to adjust their position in relation to their follow after a return or spin, especially with a beginner follower. If fact it's rarer not to make such an adjustment in some cases.

    It will just take a little more time with people with two left feet. Lead or follow. It's not always the leads fault though it may seem it at times.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    True you can get lazy and not lead clearly enough, .
    exactly.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    exactly.
    I said you CAN get lazy...

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    It will just take a little more time with people with two left feet. Lead or follow. It's not always the leads fault though it may seem it at times.
    no ones got two left feet they have one of each they just dont know which is which untill they are taught

    also i completely disagree that its always the leaders fault when things go wrong as a lot of beginner followers are so nervous that they anticipate moves before the leader does them my pet hate is when a follower starts turning out on the way into a first move

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    no ones got two left feet they have one of each they just dont know which is which untill they are taught

    also i completely disagree that its always the leaders fault when things go wrong as a lot of beginner followers are so nervous that they anticipate moves before the leader does them my pet hate is when a follower starts turning out on the way into a first move
    absolutely BUT..... the particular post i was referring too said that she had managed previoulsy with other people to get it right. If she then gets it wrong.....you work it out. Is it not always the leads fault? It is in my book.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    At the time of dancing with the bloke who was so hypercritical during my first freestyle, I took comfort from the fact that my main reaction to him was annoyance, rather than slinking straight home feeling humiliated. Fortunately the dance before him had been repeat business (someone asked me back – result!) and someone else whose opinion I respected had earlier told me they thought I had improved a bit.

    A week or so earlier, after my second or third week of trying the intermediate class and feeling a complete duffer, I was about ready to burst into tears (not like me at all), give up and go home for ever, especially after having a dance which consisted of nothing but octopi after I got the first few moves wrong. When I told the female taxi this, she took me straight across to the male taxi and got him to dance with me – just what I needed (thanks guys, so patient and understanding). I haven't asked octopus man to dance with me again, and he certainly hasn't asked me!

    So although I still have major dance-confidence issues I headed off (if a little tentatively) to my second freestyle (first blues one), had a good time, and I’m really looking forward to my first home venue freestyle on Saturday.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    no ones got two left feet they have one of each they just dont know which is which untill they are taught

    also i completely disagree that its always the leaders fault when things go wrong as a lot of beginner followers are so nervous that they anticipate moves before the leader does them my pet hate is when a follower starts turning out on the way into a first move
    Number one problem with the first move. Had that very recently and as the lead, there is NOTHING you can do to prevent it except advise so it doesn't happen the next time. That can not be the leads fault.
    Last edited by Steven666; 13th-March-2008 at 05:41 PM.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    absolutely BUT..... the particular post i was referring too said that she had managed previoulsy with other people to get it right. If she then gets it wrong.....you work it out. Is it not always the leads fault? It is in my book.
    It's likely in that instance to be the leads fault. But not certain.

    Follows are not 100% perfect however perfect they think they are.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    This is just my opinion formed from **** ups and some time as a Taxi dancer.

    When it comes to tips, feedback etc I think it is best to ask and re-check if people want any advice and then the empathy before critism as suggested works well.

    I'm not that keen on tips if I am learning something new as I am paying to listen to the teacher and there is already a lot of information coming in.

    All that said, we all slip up sometimes and "what do you need from my lead" can come out completely differently.

    Steve

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    But if someone says "Can I give you a tip?" when I'm dancing, I would feel very rude saying "No", even if I am thinking to myself "I'd rather you didn't because I think you're rubbish". So I would always say yes to that question anyway, smile sweetly, etc. I really can't think of another way to handle that situation, especially as I'm barely out of muggledom myself.

    I do genuinely want helpful tips and criticism because I know I've got an enormous amount to learn - I don't have any illusions about that! However, even though I'm a beginner and don't know lots of moves, I still feel that I can have a valid opinion about whether a person is a good enough dancer that their advice will be worthwhile listening to.

    Since I don't normally have any problems with timing (unless I'm dancing with someone who has, or I am getting moves wrong) I don't consider that lack of timing is necessarily a beginner issue. If someone who considers they are good enough to issue advice but obviously can't feel the beat then I would tend to have a lower opinion of both them and their advice, as to me, timing is fundamental to being a good dancer.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I do genuinely want helpful tips and criticism because I know I've got an enormous amount to learn - I don't have any illusions about that! However, even though I'm a beginner and don't know lots of moves, I still feel that I can have a valid opinion about whether a person is a good enough dancer that their advice will be worthwhile listening to.
    as a taxi i normally give tips with a smidge of humour attached
    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Since I don't normally have any problems with timing (unless I'm dancing with someone who has, or I am getting moves wrong) I don't consider that lack of timing is necessarily a beginner issue. If someone who considers they are good enough to issue advice but obviously can't feel the beat then I would tend to have a lower opinion of both them and their advice, as to me, timing is fundamental to being a good dancer.
    I agree timing is esential i first started at ceroc april 1999 by the time barbs started in jan 2000 i had a lot of moves but aweful timing ladies danced with me for comic value only.
    barbs beat me around the head a bit until my timing was pretty good if i do say so myself

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Martin, I would love to know how Barbs first broached that criticism...

    Sense of humour when giving tips sounds good - I have no problem laughing at myself when I go wrong, more of a problem when I get the giggles and go "flop"...!

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    ... He said "well done" after I got what he obviously considered a tricky move (can't remember what it was, but it wasn't remarkable). I glowered at the guy (but don't think he noticed) and then danced my little socks off as I was convinced that he thought I was a relative beginner. I think he saw the error of his ways by the end of the dance
    ...
    See now if I ever have a dance with you, I'm definitely going to say "well done". I won't like the glower or the anger, but I figure it'd be worth it for the "dancing your little socks off" that comes next.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Martin, I would love to know how Barbs first broached that criticism...
    We have great communication and love each other deeply so we know if we say something its not to hurt each other its to help as i remember she told me straight and i am a bit of a perfectionist so if i know something is wrong i will work to correct it (also she had been dancing ballroom for 16yrs before we met so i guess she would know better than me eh?)

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Sense of humour when giving tips sounds good - I have no problem laughing at myself when I go wrong, more of a problem when I get the giggles and go "flop"...!
    ah you see if you smile and laugh at yourself what could possibly be wrong after all this is only about enjoying yourself when i am taxi dancing i tell people that its about you and no one else

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    But if someone says "Can I give you a tip?" when I'm dancing, I would feel very rude saying "No", even if I am thinking to myself "I'd rather you didn't because I think you're rubbish". So I would always say yes to that question anyway, smile sweetly, etc. I really can't think of another way to handle that situation, especially as I'm barely out of muggledom myself.
    Advice is just that: advice. It is not instructions to be followed to the letter - personally I would take it to see what sort of dancer he is expecting you to be. As long as it doesn't harm to try what he is suggesting, you may learn this doesn't feel right - don't do this again. or that doesn't work, but if I do this, it does

    I do genuinely want helpful tips and criticism because I know I've got an enormous amount to learn - I don't have any illusions about that! However, even though I'm a beginner and don't know lots of moves, I still feel that I can have a valid opinion about whether a person is a good enough dancer that their advice will be worthwhile listening to.
    1) You may be a beginner, but you don't need to learn moves. 2) Learning one thing normally shows about five things more you need/want to learn; you have yet to plunge to your full depths of ignorance . 3) How good a dancer is does not necessarily equate to how good their advice will be. Teachers and taxis may be 'better than average' dancers, but I would normally give their advice more weight over someone who is a better dancer than them.
    Personally I rate the advice of beginners very highly - they have little preconception of what should be done or how it should be done: the trick (with any advice) is not to listen to it {} - if you can work out why they are telling you to do something then it is excelent advice!

    Since I don't normally have any problems with timing (unless I'm dancing with someone who has, or I am getting moves wrong) I don't consider that lack of timing is necessarily a beginner issue. If someone who considers they are good enough to issue advice but obviously can't feel the beat then I would tend to have a lower opinion of both them and their advice, as to me, timing is fundamental to being a good dancer.
    I have a whole host of problems with timing. Timing is different from leading and/or following. Do you always try and follow the timing you hear in the track or the lead of your partner? Are you dancing to the music or with your partner? Perhaps if you are not listening to your partner's lead (however "wrong" you perceive it to be) then they do have something to teach you.

    ~Gadget~
    {Taught by the best, learned from the worst.}
    Last edited by Gadget; 14th-March-2008 at 12:37 PM.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    See now if I ever have a dance with you, I'm definitely going to say "well done". I won't like the glower or the anger, but I figure it'd be worth it for the "dancing your little socks off" that comes next.
    Well you'd better make the most of it then - 'cause it'd be the only dance we'd ever have!

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    1) You may be a beginner, but you don't need to learn moves.
    I think you mean that I should be learning to follow, then I'm doing my best. However, I find that some men have a very unclear lead which even little ignorant me knows could have a number of outcomes, but I would need a crystal ball to know what these guys want me to do. I can't, at present, predict that them wafting me into a vague turn means they are about to launch into the routine they learned this week/last week/at their other class/the one which is their favourite, so I feel it is self preservation if I have a rough idea what is likely to come up.

    Unfortunately I am completely dreadful at remembering moves, so I am constantly relying on what following ability I do have - I'm a linedancer so I'm used to pinning moves onto shapes and patterns I learn with my feet, or relating them to musical rhythm or count, or even using the clock face - this doesn't work for MJ and I have yet to work out any reliable method of memorising moves...any tips, anyone?

    Also, I have found things like drops and seducers work a lot better when you can see them coming - it's a bit of a shock the first time to have your feet taken away from you or to be pushed off balance!

    ..And if the bloke I danced (badly)with last week is reading this, I still have no idea at what point I was supposed to know I had to "sit", because that move seemed to start out just like the same drop other people have done on me which doesn't involve me ending up past the point of no return, and believe me, by the time I was horizontal and 3 inches off the floor I was in no position to move into any kind of sit!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I have a whole host of problems with timing. Timing is different from leading and/or following. Do you always try and follow the timing you hear in the track or the lead of your partner? Are you dancing to the music or with your partner? Perhaps if you are not listening to your partner's lead (however "wrong" you perceive it to be) then they do have something to teach you.
    At first, if I was dancing with someone and we were off beat consistently (as opposed to an oops-I- got-that-wrong-and-need-to-get-back-on-the-beat moment) then I thought it must be my fault and I must be going wrong somewhere, so I kept trying to put myself back on the beat.

    Then I realised the same men were off beat with other people, so I figured I might have misread the situation. Now I try to follow what my partner is doing and ignore the beat, which I find incredibly hard when I would rather concentrate on dancing my best. It's very distracting having to block out the messages my subconscious is sending to the rest of my body about the musical rhythm!

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I think you mean that I should be learning to follow, then I'm doing my best. However, I find that some men have a very unclear lead which even little ignorant me knows could have a number of outcomes, but I would need a crystal ball to know what these guys want me to do. I can't, at present, predict that them wafting me into a vague turn means they are about to launch into the routine they learned this week/last week/at their other class/the one which is their favourite, so I feel it is self preservation if I have a rough idea what is likely to come up.

    I have yet to work out any reliable method of memorising moves...any tips, anyone?
    Yes – don’t bother. As soon as you think you’ve learnt a move, you’ll find that a lead does a variation that confuses you. Also, learning the moves leads to anticipation, the cardinal sin amongst follows. Learning the moves from a followers perspective will simply hold you back.

    Get used to the idea that just about anything could happen next, and you’ll improve your following no end.

    If the lead is not giving you a clear indication of what you are supposed to be doing, that is his fault and problem. By trying to fix his poor lead, you are not going to help him realise that he needs to be clearer. And if you interpret what you think he’s doing, and he’s not actually doing that, you’re probably just going to annoy him! Your experience of the drop is a good illustration of that Next time you might actually hit the floor

    Having said all that, over time, moves will start to feel familiar, and you’ll realise that if your lead does a certain thing, it’s likely to lead to a particular move – but not necessarily!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Also, I have found things like drops and seducers work a lot better when you can see them coming - it's a bit of a shock the first time to have your feet taken away from you or to be pushed off balance!

    ..And if the bloke I danced (badly)with last week is reading this, I still have no idea at what point I was supposed to know I had to "sit", because that move seemed to start out just like the same drop other people have done on me which doesn't involve me ending up past the point of no return, and believe me, by the time I was horizontal and 3 inches off the floor I was in no position to move into any kind of sit!)
    If you are a beginner, the guys shouldn’t really be doing full scale drops on you as yet – it’s too easy to injure either of you. And you need to learn to avoid the drops you don’t want to do. If you feel comfortable doing them, then that is up to you, but if for the moment you’d rather not be thrown at the floor, then say so at the beginning of the dance. If they ask why, tell them you’re still a beginner and you don’t have the technique yet (to save their blushes that you’re worried they’ll hurt you!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Then I realised the same men were off beat with other people, so I figured I might have misread the situation. Now I try to follow what my partner is doing and ignore the beat, which I find incredibly hard when I would rather concentrate on dancing my best. It's very distracting having to block out the messages my subconscious is sending to the rest of my body about the musical rhythm!


    guess you just learn to go with it over time as well.

    Btw – welcome to the forum

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I think you mean that I should be learning to follow, then I'm doing my best. However, I find that some men have a very unclear lead which even little ignorant me knows could have a number of outcomes, but I would need a crystal ball to know what these guys want me to do. I can't, at present, predict that them wafting me into a vague turn means they are about to launch into the routine they learned this week/last week/at their other class/the one which is their favourite, so I feel it is self preservation if I have a rough idea what is likely to come up.
    Well the major sin of follows is to not actually follow. The major sin of leaders is to not actually lead - which sort of leaves the followers in a confusing situation and basically having to guess what the leader wants and to do it on their own. In the end, if you lead yourself through things because the leader isn't leading in a clear way you do not teach the leader not to lead. This chicken and egg problem sometimes gets sorted out when you find yourselves at weekender and go to classes on lead and follow. In the meantime you find yourself in the situation of not being led and having to make a best guess to aviod standing around looking confused. Unfortuantely most inexperinced leads will make thier lead more forceful rather than clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Unfortunately I am completely dreadful at remembering moves, so I am constantly relying on what following ability I do have - I'm a linedancer so I'm used to pinning moves onto shapes and patterns I learn with my feet, or relating them to musical rhythm or count, or even using the clock face - this doesn't work for MJ and I have yet to work out any reliable method of memorising moves...any tips, anyone?
    Please don't remember moves (unless you want to lead them). If you do moves just because you remember the first part and auto complete the rest then you cannot be led into any variations of the basic move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Also, I have found things like drops and seducers work a lot better when you can see them coming - it's a bit of a shock the first time to have your feet taken away from you or to be pushed off balance!
    This really should not be happening to you. Being led into the start position of a drop should be fair enough but the leader should wait until you place (not throw) your weight into his arms to indicate that you will comply and are ready. If you don't want go into the drop then don't give him your weight. If he tries to push you then resist, possibly even saying "no". There are logical accent points in music that would suggest that a drop or dip would be suitable at them - they are the best way to "see it coming" - unless your leader is ignoring the music and throwing them in any old where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    ..And if the bloke I danced (badly)with last week is reading this, I still have no idea at what point I was supposed to know I had to "sit", because that move seemed to start out just like the same drop other people have done on me which doesn't involve me ending up past the point of no return, and believe me, by the time I was horizontal and 3 inches off the floor I was in no position to move into any kind of sit!)
    Perhaps he was kneeling on the floor with a thigh outstretched for you to sit on and you thought you were going into a drop and did that instead. It is one of the dangers of trying to remember the moves. The leader thinks they are leading one move and you think he is doing another move and you both end up going for different moves - most of the time the result is harmless confusion - sometimes it is more dangerous. You must wait for the lead. You may be a bit insentive to the lead at first but you will get more sensitive in the time you have because you have avoided injuries. Assuming of course that the leader is really leading.



    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    At first, if I was dancing with someone and we were off beat consistently (as opposed to an oops-I- got-that-wrong-and-need-to-get-back-on-the-beat moment) then I thought it must be my fault and I must be going wrong somewhere, so I kept trying to put myself back on the beat.
    I had a partner that had a much better idea of the beat than I had and she would constantly reset herself to the beat. It was annoying to me at first until we sorted out what she was doing. In the end it turned out to be the most valuable thing she could have done. It didn't stop me from getting off beat but at least I realised the fact and was able to get back on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    Then I realised the same men were off beat with other people, so I figured I might have misread the situation. Now I try to follow what my partner is doing and ignore the beat, which I find incredibly hard when I would rather concentrate on dancing my best. It's very distracting having to block out the messages my subconscious is sending to the rest of my body about the musical rhythm!
    Sometimes people have to dance off time because thier partner is slow doing a turn or is distracted by having to avoid other dancers. Sometimes the leaders just have a short period of "brain fade" and utterly lose the plot. Partner dancers do get off time but the key things are a) do they notice and b) do they try to get back on time. If you can stay on time when you partner goes off time then you may act as a useful referance to them although it may be more helpful if you mark time on the spot until you are led somewhere. If they have brain fade and you come marching towards them then they get that rabbit in the headlights look in their faces as they try to do something - usually something stupid.

    It's not easy being a leader what with all that leading, thinking, avoiding other people, thinking about this move, thinking about the next move, remembering to smile, remembering to not stick your tongue out because you are concentrating. Mind you all that spinning that the followers do can be tough as well.
    Last edited by Chef; 14th-March-2008 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Twirly got there before me.

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