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Thread: Cricitising your dance partner.

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    Registered User Easily Led's Avatar
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    Question Cricitising your dance partner.

    Recently I went to a work-related motivational session where the speaker suggested that any criticism should be prefaced with at least two good points As someone who has encountered a fair amount of criticism on the dance floor and generally found it a really negative experience, wouldn't this be a good example to follow? I personally do not see the necessity to criticize someone at all unless what they are doing is dangerous or painful, but if you feel the compulsion to be "helpful" wouldn't it be better to say something like ... "You are following really well and have great eye contact but you are holding on a little bit too tight IMO." Or something like that?

    Of course it is slightly different for teachers or taxis but not impossible? Am I alone in not wanting to dance with critics however good their intentions?

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Do you mean....

    I really enjoyed that dance thank you. You led/followed really well but you might find if you lifted your thumb off the back of your partners hand you will find turns and returns much easier!

    ... Taxis and teachers are perfectly capable of this and this is how i have trained my taxis to encourage beginners not give them endless critcism

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Constructive criticism is worthwhile, but should be reserved away from the dancefloor, never during any dancing. Often, if the lady is relatively new to MJ, I may guide my partner through a dance and demonstrate it in a kind way by perhaps moving their hands to the right places (i.e their left hand to my shoulder during a Manhattan, or if they are doing a move against where you want them to go to guide them gently into the correct direction.)

    General rule of thumb should be to dance with the person if you have agreed to do so and and stay silent. You can usually tell what level they are at based on their handhold, whether it is too tight or light and then base your moves around that handhold.

    best
    johnnyman

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyman View Post
    General rule of thumb should be to dance with the person if you have agreed to do so and and stay silent.
    Unless they are hurting you.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    As a newbie, I do appreciate helpful and constructive criticism, especially from the taxis (who are brilliant and so patient) and good dancers. I have no problem being shown how to do something on the dance floor, because it gives me a chance to try something again....and I feel I need all the help I can get.

    I love to try new moves and be challenged up to a point, but what I really don’t appreciate is someone finding out I am a beginner before we dance, then deliberately doing the most tricksy moves they can think of, then either criticising me or taking the p*** when I can’t do them to perfection. I can only assume this is an ego trip for the man, because surely it can't make for the best dance we could potentially have. I do manage to follow lots of moves I haven’t done before, but I think it is unreasonable to expect me to follow anything and everything with perfect aplomb and style, especially if the man isn’t terribly clear with his lead.

    I also don’t appreciate it when dancers who aren’t actually that good pat me kindly on the shoulder afterwards and say “Don’t worry love, you’ll get it eventually”, which is particularly annoying if I have spent the dance cocking up moves that I can do perfectly well with everyone else.

    I’ve noticed that the best dancers are NEVER that patronising, even though they must surely be suffering vastly more from dancing with me than Mr Average has suffered. I am always polite to people when I dance, and I thought that was part of the general etiquette anyway. Most dancers are lovely when I have danced with them, but you certainly get a few funnies now and again.

    My worst experience of criticism so far was at my first ever freestyle a few weeks ago when the guy took two (out of time) steps with me, instantly said I was obviously a beginner, wasn't I darling, then criticised everything I did all the way through the dance. I would have minded marginally less if he himself had been especially good or even able to dance in time. I was pretty quiet but managed to smile during the dance (quite an achievement because I wanted to deck him) and thanked him politely at the end, cos I’m well brought up. Then, blow me, later on he asked me for a second dance, then proceeded to give me the benefit of his extensive knowledge all the way through that too (in between singing at me)!

    A couple of weeks ago a guy spun me so fast on the spot that my eyeballs started disintegrating, then asked after the dance if I’d noticed I’d done six turns in a row, then when I said “er, yes”, he told me it was ok, because he had some paracetomol! Now that’s being helpful to your partner on the dance floor!

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    A couple of weeks ago a guy spun me so fast on the spot that my eyeballs started disintegrating, then asked after the dance if I’d noticed I’d done six turns in a row, then when I said “er, yes”, he told me it was ok, because he had some paracetomol! Now that’s being helpful to your partner on the dance floor!
    That's just weird... it's strange what some folks try to pass off as a sense of humour. Good that you're still dancing despite all that hypocriticism, I don't know if I'd have the patience.

    Dan

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    I did this recently at a freestyle. But I wouldn't criticise someone I had never danced with before, to me that seems plain rude. I can remember the incident because I so seldom do it as it is a minefield. However, this young lady is passionate about her dancing and I could see that there was something she was likely unaware of that was really hindering her.

    I prefaced the comment by asking her if she was open to suggestions and pointers. She said yes. So I asked if she had considered doing 'her problematic thing' in this way, because she may find it easier. She said she hadn't considered that and we had a great chin wag about the pro's and con's and she was really pleased I spoke to her.

    I spoke to her at the end of the night, lights up, shoe putting on time.

    I think the main consideration with advice is exactly that; consideration. I was really grateful that she listened to what I had to say, and took my observations in the spirit in which they were given

    General rule of thumb should be to dance with the person if you have agreed to do so and and stay silent.
    Unless they are hurting you.
    Do some things really need to be qualified

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    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I also don’t appreciate it when dancers who aren’t actually that good pat me kindly on the shoulder afterwards and say “Don’t worry love, you’ll get it eventually”, which is particularly annoying if I have spent the dance cocking up moves that I can do perfectly well with everyone else.

    If it helps, I've been to a couple of beginner classes recently as moral support for a friend of mine who's just started and I get told by at least three women a night that I'm doing something wrong. I don't think it's a co-incidence that they're always close to the worst in the class.....

    I stopped doing Intermediate classes in part because I was getting sick of listening from "advice" from people who didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    [FONT=Arial]
    I also don’t appreciate it when dancers who aren’t actually that good pat me kindly on the shoulder afterwards and say “Don’t worry love, you’ll get it eventually”, which is particularly annoying if I have spent the dance cocking up moves that I can do perfectly well with everyone else.
    You said it.... you done it perfectly well with everyone else. Your only as good as the lead your dancing with regardless of standard. I do find, even after 6 years of doing MJ that people who dont know me, usualy the dancers who only go to one venue and are the face of the venue that thinks they are so good cause they been doing it for so long, say this to me as they have not seen me before and assume i am a new dancer. Now i know im a good follow, so trust me, if it went wrong then this is not my fault but theirs. THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE.... so next time somebody does that, do as i do. Smile sweetly and ignore them.

    As a trainee lead, i have established that even the newest hardest followers can follow with gentle encouragement and the right signals. A few tips here and there can help greatly.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I stopped doing Intermediate classes in part because I was getting sick of listening from "advice" from people who didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did.
    Ahhh ... the bane of every teacher in the land. It would be preferable (IMHO) if dancers would leave teaching to the teachers for the most part. I KNOW that many on the Forum do have a level of expertise, but more often than not the advice given to newbies is wrong or unnecessarily complex. Just because YOU were taught a certain way, doesn't always mean that that particular rule/style applies in all conditions.

    Had the 'pleasure' of some numpty in a recent class ignoring everything I said, showing his partner the 'proper' way of doing things and then complaining that the class wasn't complex enough ... even though he was trying to lead a T&C move with an outrageously bouncy hand. Where is that taser when I need it

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    In terms of when to give criticism, other folks have said all the things I'd say.

    In terms of how to give criticism, am I the only one who finds it a little contrived when people use the "give some praise, then some criticism" approach? I usually want them to just get on with it and tell me what I'm doing wrong (but maybe I'm unusually cynical).

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    Registered User Jasmin's Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Poor you! That's very bad manners. I have been dancing a few years now, but do remember very well my first experience of a dance weekend away. I had done every dance class going, and had achieved a lot in that weekend. It was the last night, I was having my last dance before a very long drive home, and wished I hadn't bothered. This guy was just so rude and unforgiving; I hadn't recognised his signal, and after misreading it the second time, he insisted on just doing a first move for the rest of the dance. I felt so humiliated, that in the end, I just walked off and left him on the dance floor! My opinion was that yes, I was fairly new to the dancing thing, but that in actual fact he was a very poor lead! Don't let anyone get you down and feel bad about yourself; it's them that have the problem, and should be encouraging you. Thankfully, I have not encountered too many men like that since, and would like to say that I am an average dancer now, and enjoy helping my partner if they get stuck; in actual fact the men at my local EXPECT me to help them now!!!
    I wish you better luck at your next freestyle

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    Registered User ~*~Saligal~*~'s Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    *snip*In terms of how to give criticism, am I the only one who finds it a little contrived when people use the "give some praise, then some criticism" approach? I usually want them to just get on with it and tell me what I'm doing wrong (but maybe I'm unusually cynical).*snip*
    I'd prefer to be helped politely without the "pre-butter-up" - but I think I'm with you on being cynical. I would prefer to have praise separated from the criticism - as I find the criticism afterwards devalues the praise given before the criticism being delivered.
    It also matters to me who is giving the criticism. If it's from someone I respect in the dance realm then helping me out or making suggestions during the dance is fine. If it's someone who needs a little more work on their own dancing who is distracted by telling others how they could be doing it better, then I don't take this too well. I prefer for people to focus on their own technique and being responsible for their part in the dance before taking it upon themselves to tell others how to best do something. Obviously if it's a dangerous situation then comments need to be made at the time.
    (btw - nice to see ya Gary )

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasmin View Post
    in the end, I just walked off and left him on the dance floor! My opinion was that yes, I was fairly new to the dancing thing, but that in actual fact he was a very poor lead! Don't let anyone get you down and feel bad about yourself; it's them that have the problem, and should be encouraging you. Thankfully, I have not encountered too many men like that since.
    WOW well done you for not putting up with any rubbish.

    You should put a comment into the thread I started "Your wasting my time, enjoy dancing by yourself, see ya!" hardly anyone replied to say that when they'd had enough and marched off. Most people including myself just grin and bear it. Which just turns the fustration inwards which I think is unfair to yourself.

    I never criticize anyone dancing, now and then I might make a suggestion to a friend to ask if they had considered doing something slightly different in there dancing that might make some improvement but I'm always very careful not to offend.

    Ceroc to me is all about fun so enjoyment comes way before perfection.

    Jasmin and Easily Lead, I hope I get the opportunity to dance with you someday, I'm sure I'd be smiling and passing on many compliments.

    Cheers DD

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    as a taxi I have found there is a very difficult balance between criticism and negativity our main job is confidence building and so i try to do that with a smile. if someone has been dancing a while and makes mistakes ie not stepping back with the correct foot in a ceroc first move i will mention it and say that i would hope if the said person saw me do something that they would tell me as well

    when i am freestyle dancing with someone new i will firstly asses how good they are (normally the hand hold will tell you this) then adjust my dancing to their level. Its all about having fun if they make a mistake on one of my leads its either my fault for doing a dodgy lead or they dont know the move so generally i might say something like oh ok lets do that move then with a huge smile that normally settles someone who is hesitant down.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moondancer View Post
    I’ve noticed that the best dancers are NEVER that patronising, even though they must surely be suffering vastly more from dancing with me than Mr Average has suffered.
    not true.
    It's up to the lead to recognise the level and capability of the follower.
    Throughout it is a partnership and if the lead is doing his job properly BOTH will enjoy the dance.
    I find that dancing with a newbie or beginner is just as satisfying as dancing with an accomplished follower. All partners require my concentration, as I don't find it natural, and I dedicate this 4minutes to my partner. It's down to me to give leadable moves and when completed successfully both of us are pleased.
    If a move is poorly executed but keeps flowing I will move on without comment. If the move comes to a halt, I will assess if my Follower is willing to listen and then maybe explain where she should be and try again a few moves later. Usually I will take even more care to LEAD her through the problem move and success is rewarded with yet another smile, or better a big grin! This really makes ME focus on leading, sometimes to the detriment of connection.

    I often end a dance with a "well done" and one partner took exception to this remark. Is it that bad? I took it out of my vocabulary for a short while but it's back in, along the "brilliant", "fantastic", "next week again?" and a string of other similar comments. My more familiar partners might even get a hug.
    OOPS, last night I hugged a brand new first night beginner. Yes, it was that good. I do hope that she hasn't gone home thinking "dirty old man".

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I often end a dance with a "well done" and one partner took exception to this remark. Is it that bad?
    Honestly? I think saying "well done" is very likely to come across as patronising. I can't really put my finger on why it's different from "brilliant", "fantastic", etc. but I do think it is. I don't see "well done" as something you generally say to equals - it's more something a parent says to a child, or a teacher to a student.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Honestly? I think saying "well done" is very likely to come across as patronising. I can't really put my finger on why it's different from "brilliant", "fantastic", etc. but I do think it is. I don't see "well done" as something you generally say to equals - it's more something a parent says to a child, or a teacher to a student.
    Absolutely! It's a bit like saying "that was a good effort, not as good as mine, but not bad". Might be OK if someone has asked for help with something and they've just got it, or you’ve just had your first dance with a complete beginner, but even then I can think of better things to say.

    Had it said to me last time I was at Hammersmith. It as at the start of the dance and we were both easing in as we'd never danced before. He said "well done" after I got what he obviously considered a tricky move (can't remember what it was, but it wasn't remarkable). I glowered at the guy (but don't think he noticed) and then danced my little socks off as I was convinced that he thought I was a relative beginner. I think he saw the error of his ways by the end of the dance

    I know there was a discussion about this a while back, one of our highly experienced forumite follows had it said to her and took exception as well, but I can't find the thread. Anyone remember it

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
    Now i know im a good follow, so trust me, if it went wrong then this is not my fault but theirs. THIS IS ALWAYS THE CASE....
    THIS IS RUBBISH....

    Dancing is a partnership. If a move does not end up as the leader expected then that is a result of the partnership. Talking of fault presupposes that leader and follower are in competition rather than complementing one another.

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    Re: Cricitising your dance partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Honestly? I think saying "well done" is very likely to come across as patronising. I can't really put my finger on why it's different from "brilliant", "fantastic", etc. but I do think it is. I don't see "well done" as something you generally say to equals - it's more something a parent says to a child, or a teacher to a student.
    maybe it's the teacher in me leaking out.
    But we teachers even say it to each other when something is well done. We like to be recognised.
    It appears that the same comment cannot be applied to dancing peers without some kind of put down being interpreted.
    Even if you're only the second to state that view, then I will find other compliments to express my satisfaction.

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