Your wasting my time, enjoy dancing by yourself, see ya!

[CheesyRobMan]

I consider it is my partner's duty to inform me if she is not happy with a series of moves/positions. They have the right to complain to me in person. Then if I choose to ignore their advice to take it further.
Please speak up. I at least expect it.

It only takes a moment to say "please don't do that" or "that's uncomfortable". A quick word with the person in question is far more constructive than going and gossiping behind their back when they were only (perhaps badly) leading into a blues hold for example, and then wonder why no one else dances with them again! If you wouldn't say something about someone to their face, chances are you shouldn't be saying it at all.

[Twirly]

this situation spells out my need for clarification on Sleaze and how I can avoid this "dirty old man" syndrome. I have been practicing the Penguin Waddle with many well known partners but not everyone and certainly not strangers. I have taken on board the thought that it can be led with a "body gap" and use the arm frame to control the move, but this is definitely more difficult to lead than my earlier close up attempts.
I would be very disappointed if any of my partners went behind my back and discussed how uncomfortable they were in my Penguin.
I consider it is my partner's duty to inform me if she is not happy with a series of moves/positions. They have the right to complain to me in person. Then if I choose to ignore their advice to take it further.
Please speak up. I at least expect it.

Why are you assuming that there is a problem here? Are you staring down your partner's cleavage? Holding her tight even when she's clearly trying to get away? Does she dance at arms length from you, has she started avoiding eye contact with you? These are the things that will indicate that she's uncomfortable. If you're still in doubt, ask regular partners whom you can trust to give you an honest answer if you do anything to make them uncomfortable.

We've only had one dance, which didn't include a penguin (why does that phrase conjour up the most bizarre double trouble image?! ). As I've said before, it wasn't sleazy.

The best one of these I've ever been lead in was by Lisa at the first Beach Ballroom I attended. As she started it, she suddenly said "oh, are you OK with this - not all women like being lead this close?". I said that I didn't have a problem with it, and we proceeded to chat as she whizzed me round the floor at top speed - and it was fun! But it just goes to show that you can have a conversation whilst doing this move - so ask your partners how your penquin is

And stop worrying so much about sleaze...

[dep]

Why are you assuming that there is a problem here? Are you staring down your partner's cleavage? Holding her tight even when she's clearly trying to get away? Does she dance at arms length from you, has she started avoiding eye contact with you? These are the things that will indicate that she's uncomfortable.

I'm reaching the age where almost everyone I dance with is either younger or very much younger than myself. I too am quite short (cleavage problem? no problem)
I don't think body language alone is sufficient.
In my view, Followers must speak up.

[Twirly]

It only takes a moment to say "please don't do that" or "that's uncomfortable". A quick word with the person in question is far more constructive than going and gossiping behind their back when they were only (perhaps badly) leading into a blues hold for example, and then wonder why no one else dances with them again! If you wouldn't say something about someone to their face, chances are you shouldn't be saying it at all.

Possibly, but I'm not good at talking to someone about something in the middle of a dance. For one thing, I can't hear any responses very well, which is awkward. I was trying to communicate my discomfort by dancing with a bigger space, and trying to move backwards out of the close hold (which wasn't to a slow track, so a blues hold would have been weird - he just stood completely still), but he wasn't letting me - the dance wasn't the "two way" conversation that I'm used to. I am also wary (particularly having read comments on here) about giving unsolicited (verbal) feedback.

As for gossiping - I didn't intend to. I simply asked the person I knew how she'd found dancing with him, as I wasn't sure if it was a problem in my own perception, or if it was something in his style that I simply didn't like. She proferred the information that she'd had from other people (call this gossiping, or the "girl's network" if you like). We didn't stand there and bitch about it, the conversation lasted barely 30 seconds. It's not a major problem, as I simply avoid dancing with him now. He still seems to dance a lot when I've seen him at the odd freestyle, so I guess that it's not a problem for other women.

And I only used the story on here as an illustration regarding control in the dance.

[Twirly]

I'm reaching the age where almost everyone I dance with is either younger or very much younger than myself. I too am quite short (cleavage problem? no problem)
I don't think body language alone is sufficient.
In my view, Followers must speak up.

One of the chaps I dance with regularly is in his 70's. And there are quite a few dancers considerably older than myself, and a lot older than you, whom I dance with quite often too. Being older doesn't make you sleazy.

I'm also aware, as I assume are most women who dance, that if we wear a low-cut top whilst dancing, our cleavage is going to be looked at I don't have a problem with that, as it's usually just a glance. That is different from what I've described.

Yes, follows can and should speak up, but some are too shy, and when you're in the middle of a dance and feel uncomfortable it's not always easy. Also, it's difficult to accuse someone of something in the middle of a dance. So some of us vote with our feet.

The dances I enjoy the most are those where the lead "reads" me and picks up on what I like and am good at - they're the ones

[dep]

The dances I enjoy the most are those where the lead "reads" me and picks up on what I like and am good at - they're the ones

I hope I can reach that standard eventually.

[dep]

Yes, follows can and should speak up, but some are too shy, and when you're in the middle of a dance and feel uncomfortable it's not always easy. Also, it's difficult to accuse someone of something in the middle of a dance. So some of us vote with our feet.

and threads like this may give Followers the courage to stand up and be counted.

[Moondancer]

Although I can see why logically it would be better to say something than not say something if there’s a problem, with “Barely Out of Muggledom” tattooed on my forehead there is no way I would criticise my dance partner (unless asked to, obviously). I think my partners would think I was getting above myself.

I get clear vibes from some of the men who I think are pretty rubbish leads, that if I suffer from crystal ball failure and don’t figure out what they want me to do, then it is automatically my fault because I’m a beginner and therefore I don’t know that move properly. I’m not about to say “I got that wrong because you didn't lead it clearly”. In any case, it isn’t always obvious to me quite why something works with one lead and not with another, and for all I know, it could be something I’m doing that causes a problem.

I’ve worked on the assumption that if I’m getting thumb bruising or whatever, then probably other followers are too, so one of them with more experience will probably say something. The only thing I think I would voluntarily comment on at this stage would be if I were in major pain or if I felt I was being over-sleazed. That sounds like a cop-out, but it isn’t meant to be, just an opinion that you should have a certain level of competence yourself before you start commenting on the competence of others.

[Twirly]

I get clear vibes from some of the men who I think are pretty rubbish leads, that if I suffer from crystal ball failure and don’t figure out what they want me to do, then it is automatically my fault because I’m a beginner and therefore I don’t know that move properly. I’m not about to say “I got that wrong because you didn't lead it clearly”. In any case, it isn’t always obvious to me quite why something works with one lead and not with another, and for all I know, it could be something I’m doing that causes a problem.

I know what you mean. But for the sake of your sanity at the moment, just assume that it's their fault for the moment. Particularly with experienced leads - they would be cutting you some slack if they're gentlemen after all.

As you gain experience, it'll get easier. I still apologise though and have the guy tell me it was his fault (and I hate it when I apologise too - drives me nuts when others do it to me all the time, yet I do it myself too )

[Zara]

i unfortunaetly got grabbed by a very small...extreamely dramatic chap last time i was on the boat in london....

When i danced with him he made me stand there through out the whole song while he wiggled his hips and flicked his hair like he was the next ricky martin!

He's at every weekender, every competition and he thinks hes so good

but good to me is not ripping your shirt open halfway through a dance and posing....

i do like to have a bit of fun by myself like fletch and jamie thats the way i am, we have a little boogie fletch with her disco style, jamie with his spins, me with my spins and funny expressions...

but i would never make somebody stand there for an hour like a lemon

now if he approaches me i automatically reach for my drink or walk off

i have seen many girl's experience a dance with this unpleasant man

zara, twirlie bird...

he is just too over the top and i wish he would stop!!!

You should think yourself lucky you missed his 'performance' sunday night at Camber



I have walked off the dancefloor a few times because of being thrown into dangerous drops and I wouldnt hesitate to walk away from a pervy guy either. I wouldnt be prepared to sacrifice my safety for good manners. Ive had numerous dances which were just awful (out of time, arms being wrenched etc) but I would usually just grin and bear it...while counting down the seconds until I can escape! Luckily I get very few bad dances these days.

xxx

[martingold]

I know what you mean. But for the sake of your sanity at the moment, just assume that it's their fault for the moment. Particularly with experienced leads - they would be cutting you some slack if they're gentlemen after all.

absolutely correct

As you gain experience, it'll get easier. I still apologise though and have the guy tell me it was his fault (and I hate it when I apologise too - drives me nuts when others do it to me all the time, yet I do it myself too )

tut tut tut dont you know one of the first rules of ceroc is lose the word sorry form your vocabulary
unless you kick me in the shins of course (or other places)

[Astro]

I know what you mean. But for the sake of your sanity at the moment, just assume that it's their fault for the moment. Particularly with experienced leads - they would be cutting you some slack if they're gentlemen after all.

The very experienced leads will give you multi options - like those questionaires.

So if a lead starts tutting, rolling his eyes, or losing interest when you get it "wrong according to him", he's not an experienced lead at all, just thinks he is.

[Gary]

At a recent weekender, in a middle of dance, my partner held my hands in what was undoubtedly a drop position - the only problem was I didn't know what he was intending to do. As we are constantly drummed on "not throwing your weight into a drop" I patiently waited for the next signal.

You rock, I want to dance with you.

It never came, and the man, now very annoyed, said "lambada drop". Now what the hell is lambada drop - i didn't know then - and I still don't know now. The man tutted, stopped paying attention to me completely, and started scouring the crowd for his next partner. ...

Oh my God! Are there many guys who just tell the girl some obscure move name instead of, oh, I don't know, leading?

[frodo]

At a recent weekender, in a middle of dance, my partner held my hands in what was undoubtedly a drop position - the only problem was I didn't know what he was intending to do. As we are constantly drummed on "not throwing your weight into a drop" I patiently waited for the next signal. It never came, and the man, now very annoyed, said "lambada drop". Now what the hell is lambada drop - i didn't know then - and I still don't know now.

When I've been taught it, it has been pretty much get in position to support the lady and let the lady do the rest.

While there may be more cues that can be given to the lady It does seem quite correct that is taught as invited, rather forcing it by clamping her leg and pushing her into a back bend.

So a verbal lead isn't perhaps entirely inappropriate.

The move is frequently taught under that name at some venues, and he may not have appreciated it isn't the same elsewhere.

...Are there many guys who just tell the girl some obscure move name instead of, oh, I don't know, leading?

Not necessarily an issue specific to the guys. Ladies can be ever so helpful in advising this/asking for this.

[nebula]

you danced with him again??????

I know ... But then I am (usually!) a forgiving and reasonable person - after all, I did ruin his probably spectacular move!

You rock, I want to dance with you.

Any time, Gary - when are you next in UK? Sorry, not planning to go down to Sydney any time soon!

The move is frequently taught under that name at some venues, and he may not have appreciated it isn't the same elsewhere.

Oh my God! Are there many guys who just tell the girl some obscure move name instead of, oh, I don't know, leading?

Thankfully, no!

[CheesyRobMan]

Possibly, but *stuff*

That wasn't intended as a dig at you, Twirly - sorry if it came over as such. I would always prefer someone to talk to me directly about a problem they were having with me, instead of hearing it third-hand from someone completely uninvolved. If someone said to me "please don't do that" I wouldn't consider it feedback, just a simple request to back off!

[Trouble]

well not really in line with the whole thread but then again it sort of is.

I went to Ashtons wednesday. In intermediate class there were men over unusally. The men moving started going wrong and there was a bit of a kerfufal. After a quick shuffle, the men were put into the right place. We were all laughing and i said to the guy who ended up infront of me " men and counting, never a good thing is it" phnar phnar...... he then looked me up and down and said " i can count perfectly ****ing well thanks" I was floored and before i could decide how to react, the teacher started the music and we started the moves. I was so upset by his reaction that i just walked, stood and basically ****ed up his moves. Then i walked away, welcomed the next dancer who i knew with a hug.

Is it me? What a twat.

[DundeeDancer]

.snip..."i can count perfectly ****ing well thanks"
Is it me?

Thanks Trouble for being you!

This is bang on thread for me, just basic respect being ignored again.

I think you should have hit him with other comment like "OK I'll test ya then, how many fingers I'm I holding up…that's right two well done"

In the blokes defence though you did catch him at a weak point, trying to count and think on the new moves at the same time is to much for us simple beings.

It really annoys me when the teacher says, "OK it's 12 women on now, gentlemen please help the ladies by counting for them".

I think NO , I've got enough on my plate just trying to figure out that move you half explained 10 seconds ago, surely the ladies can count to 12?

Makes me want to heckle and grumble so much that I forget both the move and the count.

[dep]

.........there were men over unusally. The men moving started going wrong and there was a bit of a kerfufal............ " men and counting, never a good thing is it"

we occasionally have the same problem.
But for a completely different reason.

The stationary rows usually count the movers through.
When the followers become stationary, the empty headed Ladies forget it's their responsibility to count the moving men through.
Yes, we all laugh and blame the men, that's why God gave us broad shoulders, but we know where the fault lies (innocent!).
But, we still love and respect you.

That's another seventeen dancers refusing my invitation tonight!! (flowers, asking forgiveness)

[dep]

gentlemen please help the ladies by counting for them".

I think NO , I've got enough on my plate just trying to figure out that move you half explained 10 seconds ago, surely the ladies can count to 12?

It's OK Dundee, I'll count for you. You need all the support we can provide.