Your wasting my time, enjoy dancing by yourself, see ya!

[Steven666]

It amazes me that knowing people who have been going for years still don't know where to go when they reach the end of a row (especially the men).

[Astro]

I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here. Could you elaborate?

Ah sorry, I meant the guy can always step forward if the follow takes big steps, not back.

That wasn't intended as a dig at you, Twirly - sorry if it came over as such. I would always prefer someone to talk to me directly about a problem they were having with me, instead of hearing it third-hand from someone completely uninvolved. If someone said to me "please don't do that" I wouldn't consider it feedback, just a simple request to back off!

[/quote] You sound like a gentleman, but some guys are as stubborn as mules, and won't be told anything.

You know, could it just be the London guys because there are so many venues in London and it would be easy for them to keep up bad practice?

In a place where there are not many venues these mules would have to sort themselves out because otherwise there would come a day when no one would deign to dance with them.[quote]

I went to Ashtons wednesday.

London again.

he then looked me up and down and said " i can count perfectly ****ing well thanks" I was floored and before i could decide how to react, the teacher started the music and we started the moves. I was so upset by his reaction that i just walked, stood and basically ****ed up his moves. Then i walked away, welcomed the next dancer who i knew with a hug.

Is it me? What a twat.

He's a twat. What's the betting that he had a middle class accent.

Definition of a mule -

won't be told anything - 'I know what I'm doing'
is stubborn
kicks the people around him
keeps his arm bent
stares at ladies bosums
ill mannered
probable misogynist
ladies 'in the know' avoid him

Bring on the stallions

[martingold]

" i can count perfectly ****ing well thanks" .

surely by now everyone knows when us men are moved round it all ends in trouble (sorry for the pun)

I have to take me shoes and socks of to help me count on the way round

[Astro]

surely by now everyone knows when us men are moved round it all ends in trouble (sorry for the pun)

I have to take me shoes and socks of to help me count on the way round

Reminds me of Fletch's joke -

"I'm not intelligent like those dancers who can dance and count at the same time"

[MartinHarper]

"men and counting, never a good thing is it" phnar phnar
...
Is it me?

Yeah, you need to get newer jokes.
I've lost count of how old that one is.

[dep]

He's a twat. What's the betting that he had a .......accent.

Definition of a mule -

won't be told anything - 'I know what I'm doing'
is stubborn
kicks the people around him
keeps his arm bent
stares at ladies bosums
ill mannered
probable misogynist
ladies 'in the know' avoid him

Bring on the stallions

I thought for a moment you were referring to me, but looked up the dictionary to discover there's someone else who's worse.

[straycat]

keeps his arm bent

Request clarification on this point

[Freudian Hips]

And stop worrying so much about sleaze...

Yep being this interested in sleaze is ........ well, sleazy!

In my view, Followers must speak up.

and threads like this may give Followers the courage to stand up and be counted.

So, have I got this right, the follows are responsible for telling the leads if their behaviour is socially unacceptable. Sorry, I disagree. there are natural consequences when behaviour is our of kilter with social expectations and acceptability. I have no responsibility in the world to tell someone that they make me feel uncomfortable. I can choose to. I can choose not to. There are situations in which I might choose either course of action.

As you gain experience, it'll get easier. I still apologise though and have the guy tell me it was his fault (and I hate it when I apologise too - drives me nuts when others do it to me all the time, yet I do it myself too )

There are no wrong or bad moves (other than ones that end up in blood and pain ... ) The rest are simply moves that are still maturing. I find hamming it up and making it into something funny ensures people know I am enjoying the dance and it doesn't matter who b@llsed up.

[dep]

So, have I got this right, the follows are responsible for telling the leads if their behaviour is socially unacceptable.

wrong interpretation.
I'm saying this thread (or similar) empowers the partner and then he/she chooses to comment.

Sorry, I disagree. there are natural consequences when behaviour is our of kilter with social expectations and acceptability.

You are entitled to disagree. And your observation is quite obviously correct, there are consequences.

I have no responsibility in the world to tell someone that they make me feel uncomfortable. I can choose to. I can choose not to. There are situations in which I might choose either course of action.

that's empowerment. You get to choose, rather than being afraid to speak out/report the situation, or simply put up. We don't want "battered wives" syndrome here.

[Astro]

I thought for a moment you were referring to me,

We've never danced, Dep. Are You going to Southport?

but looked up the dictionary to discover there's someone else who's worse.

Who?

Request clarification on this point

I meant he keeps his elbow bent on the turns.
It's OK if I let go of his hand and complete the turn alone.

Unfortunately the mule likes to keep a firm grip on my hand and I end up turning with a twisted spine or bent knees, or both.

Leads are supposed to keep their elbows straight when leading turns aren't they Stray?

[MartinHarper]

Leads are supposed to keep their elbows straight when leading turns aren't they Stray?

Depends on relative heights and so forth.
And whether the lead is jumping at the time.

[dep]

We've never danced, Dep. Are You going to Southport?

Who?

the mysoginists. Unlikely to be this Southport but may try one later in the year.

I meant he keeps his elbow bent on the turns.
It's OK if I let go of his hand and complete the turn alone.

Unfortunately the mule likes to keep a firm grip on my hand and I end up turning with a twisted spine or bent knees, or both.Leads are supposed to keep their elbows straight when leading turns aren't they Stray?

I still don't see it.
Whether my elbows are straight or bent or flexing has little to do with leading my partner around into a turn or spin. I think it's more to do with providing a useful reaction against which the Spinner pushes. The longer the reaction is available, the less force is required to reach the same angular momentum. I prefer the gentle rather than the short sharp forceful push around/off. I suspect many of my partners would appreciate the same. Here's an example of where being able to follow and feel this would help my leading ability.

Personally, I prefer a very late release of the Followers hand, giving her time to push off and around and release as her hand starts to go behind her back. By that time my arm has started to curl around my partner to enable that late release to work.
Some Followers release very early and they must then freewheel for much longer before they come around to take my offered hand. Beginners and newish intermediates benefit from the late release until they have learned to balance better in their turns. But even skilled turners/spinners use the late release to their advantage, particularly if they intend to go into a multiple unassisted spin.

If I were to adopt a straight arm release, all that would be unavailable.

[Steven666]

^^ Late releasers I find restricting say on an exit to a catapult. It can stop me from not releasing to go into something else or for me to spin myself, single and especially double. Some never actually let go merely switching hands behind their back. Hmm.

[dep]

^^ Late releasers I find restricting say on an exit to a catapult. It can stop me from not releasing to go into something else or for me to spin myself, single and especially double.

I knew there was a reason to start following. You've just shown an example of early release preference.

But tell me, since I haven't experienced it yet.
If I take the start of the catapult spin around with a piggy grip (or cupped hand) and then as the follow starts to go around change to nearer a palm push, does that leave the Follow the choice of whether to accept the late release or for Follow to do her own thing after she chooses to release? (that was a long winded way of saying I do not "hold" or "grip" my partners hand).

[Steven666]

As a beginner follower I'm not sure what I do. I think I wait until I'm released by the leader. There's certainly no grip. But as I discribed, releasing too late is not preferable to the leader.

[MartinHarper]

Some never actually let go merely switching hands behind their back. Hmm.

Yeah, that's a different move. I think it's called the backhander.

[Steven666]

Yeah, that's a different move. I think it's called the backhander.

I mean the followers switching it behind their back instead of free spinning.

As for the back-hander, don't like it so don't lead it!

[Astro]

Depends on relative heights and so forth.
And whether the lead is jumping at the time.

I'm average height. Also I never have to contort myself to turn under the shorter guys, possibly because they have to have their elbows straight. The tall guys also knock our heads.

I still don't see it.
Whether my elbows are straight or bent or flexing has little to do with leading my partner around into a turn or spin. I think it's more to do with providing a useful reaction against which the Spinner pushes. The longer the reaction is available, the less force is required to reach the same angular momentum. I prefer the gentle rather than the short sharp forceful push around/off. I suspect many of my partners would appreciate the same. Here's an example of where being able to follow and feel this would help my leading ability.

Personally, I prefer a very late release of the Followers hand, giving her time to push off and around and release as her hand starts to go behind her back. By that time my arm has started to curl around my partner to enable that late release to work.
Some Followers release very early and they must then freewheel for much longer before they come around to take my offered hand. Beginners and newish intermediates benefit from the late release until they have learned to balance better in their turns. But even skilled turners/spinners use the late release to their advantage, particularly if they intend to go into a multiple unassisted spin.

If I were to adopt a straight arm release, all that would be unavailable.

Well I was talking about the beginers turn. A basic turn. This is taught in a way that the lead and follows hands stay connected. There should not be any reason to break hold.

I only break hold if I can't do the turn without bending. If I break hold I can keep my upright posture. However, if the lead has his elbow straight and arm straight I would be able to keep erect and not have to break hold.

The problem starts if I need to break hold to keep my frame and posture - because I can't turn under his hand properly - and he won't let go of my hand. This is probably because he knows it's a move where the hands stay held. Also he doesn't have a light handhold that I can slip out of.

[straycat]

Leads are supposed to keep their elbows straight when leading turns aren't they Stray?

I'm not going to give a 'supposed to' or otherwise on this one. I'll just say that I don't if I can help it - straightened leading arms are an evil that I try my level best to avoid at all times. A straight arm has neither the strength nor the control of a bent one.

[MartinHarper]

I'm average height.

Right. So guys shorter than you will often need to use a straight arm during a turn, while guys who are your height or taller will not. It also depends on the distance between you and your leader. It's all about the geometry of the situation. Pythagoras and all that.

The tall guys also knock our heads.

I agree. The aim point is just above the follower's head. Guys of all heights can get that wrong, in either direction. I know I do.

I gather you're complaining about a specific individual. One change a follower can make in this situation is to have a more robust frame during assisted turns, such that if the leader is pushing her hand towards her head, she matches that force. That's not always possible, and may not be with this guy. I don't know if you'll find that preferable to bending your knees and/or spinning off center.