Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 55

Thread: Evolution of Dance

  1. #21
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Ambrosden it gets
    Posts
    7,480
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    I was first taught by Janie Cronin in the mid-80s, and there was no bounce in the style she taught. However the only other regular Ceroc class at the time was at Busby's on Charing Cross Road, and I have a feeling that the style there was a bouncier. (I didn't go that often so I might be mistaken.) In the big freestyles at the time you would see a subtle bounce across the whole floor. In the '90s I noticed this bounce became a lot more prominent, but never thought anything of it.

    (I can't remember what the connection was like. At the time I don't even think I'd heard the word 'connection' in a dance context.)

    By the late '90s I was starting to learn about connection, and the long-term problems that can arise from a forceful lead. That was when I changed my dancing, although as we never taught, we wouldn't have had any influence on anyone else. I suspect it was the likes of Nigel & Nina who learned it independently of us and started to spread the word.

    The mid-late '90s was about the same time that musicality, late night dancing at weekenders, and regular WCS nights all started.

    By the time Hipsters started, I would be surprised to dance with someone who bounced a lot.

    David
    I think this historic bounce is often over stated

    Ceroc hasn’t changed much (for beginners/intermediates anyway) in the last 10 years

    If you looked at free style 10 yrs ago and now you wouldn’t see much change

    Blues and all its connotations has of course moved on

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    London & environs'
    Posts
    3,938
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Just having been there doesn't actually help answer the question, since it all happened around the 1880s if not earlier. The contribution of African-Americans to Tango is debated, but it definitely started in Buenos Aires. I couldn't tell you the color of the first dancers for sure. There was a dance done by black people called Tango, so the name at least is probably 'stolen' but that doesn't mean the dance is the same. There is a very old source which says that some of the lower classes invented 'Milonga' (normally considered the ancestor to Tango) as a kind of parody of the blacks dancing Candombe. (Which has an interesting parallel, since the opposite story exists about Lindy Hop being a parody of white ballroom dancing in North America.) But anyway, it wasn't Slave Masters who were first to do it, as it was a long time before the dance was accepted amongst higher classes. Arriving at the true source of something that happened over a 100 years ago is going to be difficult as I'm still on what happened in Modern Jive just 10 years ago!
    Thanks Amir.
    I found this. Scroll to the bit on Tango. Seems the experts agree with me.

    What is Candombe?

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    London & environs'
    Posts
    3,938
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Also, if you click on to The Tango link above you get to hear La Cumparsita by Gerado Mattos Rodriguez.

  4. #24
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    York
    Posts
    5,203
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    It would be great to hear more people saying why they try to dance smooth, assuming they do. As in, your own personal history – who or what did you see that made you think this smooth business is important to your dancing.
    I don't know if I was a 'bouncy' dancer ... but I definitely a high-energy dancer which probably has the same net result. Even after doing N&N's Blues in the late 90's, I didn't incorporate that into my Ceroc ... to me it was a very different dance. It wasn't till I started going to the weekly Jango class in 2005 that the penny finally dropped. The classes by Will & Kate were a major help but it was the coaching from DavidB () that made the difference stick.

    Looking back I'd done similar work when Amir taught for me back in 2003 ... but because there was no-one in my area who really followed a subtle lead, I never got the hang of it. Nowadays, I know who will follow a tension & compression lead and those who still have to be wound into a move I suppose, looking at all the local instructors I don’t see any teaching T&C or smooth leads in an effective manner, so I'm actually a little surprised that 'smooth' dancing has become a (minor) part of the N West dance scene. It may well be more the influence from WCS than MJ lessons.

    I would, however, say that smooth dancing shouldn't be the ALL of MJ. There are tracks which cry out for passion and/or dynamic movement. Although I can readily appreciate the positive aspects of smooth dancing, there are times when you need to cut loose and really get into a track.

  5. #25
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    I've been mulling this one over for a while - to be honest, it's very hard for me to pinpoint the changes I've seen over the last 14 years or so, or to work out the changes in my own dancing, but I can give a few milestones.

    On the bouncing side, maybe Southampton was a bouncing black spot, but the general style there used to be very bouncy - I think I first became aware of it while watching a bit of coverage about it on local TV - and they showed a room full of dancers, all bobbing up and down in perfect unison...

    First became aware of serious differences in style at the Jive Open in Hammersmith, watching N&N win with their Cats routine, and seeing Dan and Lisa win the intermediates with their hip-hop/MJ blend.

    N&N blues & musicality workshops probably started the first major change in my own style, and the first real attempts to smooth out my own dancing. Each other change in my dance has been caused by learning something outside of the MJ world (chiefly Lindy, AT, latin, salsa).

    The thing that's had far and away the most effect on smoothing out my dancing has been Lindy - the realisation that to lead it well you have to lead it smoothly utterly transformed my lead.
    I think that blues and lindy have between them had the most to do with improvements in my musical interpretation.

  6. #26
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    410
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Thanks Amir.
    I found this. Scroll to the bit on Tango. Seems the experts agree with me.

    What is Candombe?
    I couldn't find anything in that article to back that up! I thought you were saying that the partner dance we know as tango was invented by African Americans, and then stolen by slave masters.

    Argentinean tango evolved from the 1880s onwards, about 40 years after slavery was abolished so I don't think 'slave masters' had anything to do with it. Unless you mean former slave masters, but like I said, the first people to dance tango were from the lowest classes - not the rich former slave masters, who only accepted the dance when it became a fashionable in Paris.

    Also, the dance Candombe, which the article refers to, was not a partner dance like the Argentinean Tango. So although it was sometimes referred to as tango it is obviously not the same dance. (In the same way few people regard English Ballroom Tango to be the same dance as Argentinean Tango, although it shares the source.)

    The article does say:

    The tango developed simultaneously in Montevideo and Buenos Aires. Although typically regarded as the creation of Italian and Spanish immigrants, the tango's music and the dance movements associated with it were deeply influenced by African dance and music, according to experts.
    'deeply influenced' is not the same as 'invented then stolen'! I mean, Jazz music was deeply influenced by 'white' culture, but you don't say that 'white people invented Jazz and black people stole it!'

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    London & environs'
    Posts
    3,938
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    I couldn't find anything in that article to back that up! I thought you were saying that the partner dance we know as tango was invented by African Americans, and then stolen by slave masters.

    Argentinean tango evolved from the 1880s onwards, about 40 years after slavery was abolished so I don't think 'slave masters' had anything to do with it. Unless you mean former slave masters, but like I said, the first people to dance tango were from the lowest classes - not the rich former slave masters, who only accepted the dance when it became a fashionable in Paris.

    Also, the dance Candombe, which the article refers to, was not a partner dance like the Argentinean Tango. So although it was sometimes referred to as tango it is obviously not the same dance. (In the same way few people regard English Ballroom Tango to be the same dance as Argentinean Tango, although it shares the source.)
    Hmmm... I need to do more research.


    I mean, Jazz music was deeply influenced by 'white' culture, but you don't say that 'white people invented Jazz and black people stole it!'
    King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band - 1921 (Photo)

    The Cerole Jazz Band were the pioneers of Jazz.

    Whites have tried to cover this up.

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    London & environs'
    Posts
    3,938
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    There is a book -
    Pioneers of jazz, The Story Of The Creole Band by Lawrence Gushee.

    Pioneers Of Jazz: The Story of the Creole Band, Lawrence Gushee

  9. #29
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    The far east-Kent
    Posts
    3,687
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    First became aware of serious differences in style at the Jive Open in Hammersmith, watching N&N win with their Cats routine, and seeing Dan and Lisa win the intermediates with their hip-hop/MJ blend.
    For me, and I think plenty of others, Nigel & Nina's routine was a real step change, I think this was in 1996, or was it 97? They were in a different league from the competition. (Dan & Lisa made their impact the following year, which was the same year that David & Lily won the LeJive showcase competition.)

    My roots had been in Lindy, so its pretty likely I was into bouncing, although I don't have any conscious memory of bouncy hands, I think I'd had blues lesson(s) from Nigel & Nina before their triumph in competition, but that hadn't started to rub off. For me, their main impact was on musicality, nobody had previously demonstrated, mentioned, or taught musicality. (Based on my last trip to Fulham, that still seems to be the case in Ceroc!) I can recall at the early Hipsters seeing the whole room react to an accent in the music, not just the odd person here or there.
    When it comes to the influence of WCS, I believe that Nigel was influenced by Robert Cordoba, so even plenty of people who've never done a WCS lesson, probably have been affected by it.

    The blues and WCS influence is presumably mainly responsible for the slow down in music over the years. This is the major change which is most noticeable regardless of venue. Consideration of safety has also led to far fewer drops (and aerials) on crowded social dance floors. Apart from that I wonder if it would be possible to tell from a video whether you are at a dance in 2008, or 1990 (when I started Ceroc).

    Greg

  10. #30
    Registered User NZ Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepman View Post
    Apart from that I wonder if it would be possible to tell from a video whether you are at a dance in 2008, or 1990 (when I started Ceroc).
    Presumably the format would be a good clue. If it's a VHS my money's on 1990

    OK, I'll get my coat...

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Hmmm... I need to do more research.

    King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band - 1921 (Photo)

    The Cerole Jazz Band were the pioneers of Jazz.

    Whites have tried to cover this up.
    and before that ...


  12. #32
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    410
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The Cerole Jazz Band were the pioneers of Jazz.

    Whites have tried to cover this up.
    Do you mean whites have tried to cover this band up?

    Or that whites have tried to cover the fact that African Americans were the pioneers of jazz?

  13. #33
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    410
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    and before that ...

    this link starts a bit earlier:


  14. #34
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    The Cerole Jazz Band were the pioneers of Jazz.
    Well - since The Creole Jazz Band were formed in 1918, and the first published jazz arrangement is believed to have been by Jelly Roll Morton in 1915 (and he wrote it around 1904, I believe) - so I'm not sure one can call them The pioneers, although they were obviously a key part of early jazz development.

    Jelly Roll Morton used to claim that he invented jazz, but he was something of a braggart, and was probably overstating things somewhat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Whites have tried to cover this up.
    Can you back this one up? I have no idea what you're talking about.

  15. #35
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    The far east-Kent
    Posts
    3,687
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepman View Post
    Apart from that I wonder if it would be possible to tell from a video whether you are at a dance in 2008, or 1990
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I honestly believed yanking, handshaking, relentless pretzels, dancing round and round in huge circles and the 'ceroc limp' had almost died out but Oh No, how wrong I was!
    I sat upstairs with a friend before the cabaret for about half an hour and just watched... the energy some people put into their dancing is something to be admired though... its simply a case of, 'wind 'em up and watch them go!'
    It doesn't seem to matter what track's playing, its full speed, all the way to the finish line! (even if the partner can't quite keep up, that doesn't matter either! A bit like watching a wheelbarrow race, when the back person ignores the fact the front persons arms have collapsed!
    I rest my case...
    (Although maybe I was wrong about the music slowing down!)

    Greg

  16. #36
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post

    Without having researched it, I’m going to start with the claim that amongst some circles, smoothness is valued in modern jive more today than say in the 80s. Some people would say that it is more widely valued today than even just five years ago. I would be interested to hear, from people who used to dance less smooth than they do now, when did this become an important factor in their dancing, and why.

    So… if you are a dancer who values a smooth quality in your dancing, can you tell me since when, and why - what did you see or hear for you to value this.
    I would say that Modern Jive has been taking two diverging paths since some time after about 1996'ish.

    Simply put, it is the official path taken by CEROC and the official path taken by Le Roc. HOWEVER - who teaches what isn't as straight forward as saying "If I go to CEROC I'll get one style and if I go to an Independant I'll get another". Oh no, it depends on when the teacher was taught to dance and who taught them.

    If you were taught prior to 1998 AND by a teacher that had been around for a while at CEROC (Mike Ellard, Linda Barker, Roy, Victor) you would have been taught to start dancing with a push and most of the "beginners moves" would be taught very differently than those today.

    Now, I know this because I was taught by the above (as well as a few others) and when I took my Le Roc accreditation, I found that my basic style was spot on the Le Roc methodology (start with a push, smooth - non bouncy) and this is because I was taught by teachers from a certain era that, and here it is, didn't teach the CEROC "C" to start.

    Watch the teachers I mentioned, they will say "Semi-circle to the left/right" etc, but I bet when they switch to auto-pilot they do a push. Actually, I should say, they might do anything EXCEPT a "C".

    Now, you will have Le Roc accredited teachers that had to pass their accreditation by starting with a push and you will hear them say "Push away and step back" BUT you will still see them doing the CEROC "C" to start. This is because the start of the move is second nature to us all and we naturally do what we have trained ourselves to do.

    Okay, so now everyone is throughly confused.

    Think about this. If you lean by doing the CEROC "C" you are training yourself to bounce. Really, you are, and once you hit a point of extreme bouncyness, you will have to unlearn the bouncing whilst dancing, but will probbly continue to do the "C".

    If you learn with a push, you never, EVER, learn to bounce. You don't loose the half beat it takes you to do the "C" and you start off creating a better lead with tension in your arm.

    The bouncy bit is, however, part of the history of Modern Jive. When the moves were being invented (way back when) the motion of the "C" was used during moves and used to lead. By the time I started learning in the mid 90's this had well and truly gone (thank heavens), but if you watch Christine Keebles Modern Jive video, you will see what I mean about the history of the bounce.

    I would say that it became preferable to remove the bounce way back even before I started in 1995.

    So, to wrap up.

    I would argue that since the mid 90's the bouncing part of Modern Jive, as taught in moves, has been eradicated.

    I would argue that since Ceroc formalised the CEROC "C" that beginners learn a bouncing motion and then have to un-learn it once they realise that the village hall bounce isn't attractive or appealing :-)

    I would argue that if a beginner is taught, from the beginning, to use a push, they will then have a smoother dance style and not go through the bouncing phase.

    I would argue that a smooth style is a better style as it allows you, as a man and as a modern jiver, to lead better and to lead followers from lindy and WCS better.

    I can also back this up.

    When I used to demo for Ceroc, bouncing was endemic where the Ceroc "C" was both taught and the teacher actually did it (blame the CTA).

    At the "dance organisation that shall not be named" that I am involved with, we teach the push (though Simon still subconsciously does a "C" some of the time). We also teach footwork designed to remove the bounce (but that is a discussion to have elsewhere, believe me). Virtually all of our regulars haven't even heard of Ceroc. None of those that have come through our classes bounce. If they do, I have threatened to shoot them. Regulars that have a Ceroc background, do still do that bloody "C", but you can see their style changing over time and a smoother style emerging.

    Only my perspective and open to plenty of argument I guess, but when it comes down to preferred teaching styles, everyone will have a view and I bet everyone will be different :-)

    Time to wrap up, this is a subject where you could go on forever and I need to spend some time planning to take over the world.... :-)

  17. #37
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    410
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    To round up the posts so far, it seems one of the major sources of smooth dancing among 'early adopters' was exposure to WCS. This among teachers like Nigel & Nina, and dancers like David Barker, etc. (Although none of the above have said themselves on this thread that it was WCS that was the dance to influence them.)

    The trickle down effect was that other people felt they had to become smoother either because their teacher told them they should, or it was what worked with the better dancers.

    A couple of posts hinted at wanting to dance smoother to avoid injury or pain.

    Now exposure to WCS is much more wide spread, so the spread of smooth MJ dancing will probably accelerate. I would also add that there is much more contact between dancers from different areas of the country today than there was before, through the weekenders and other major events.

    If the above version ended up in the history books (not that many are writen about social dance forms, but never mind) would you agree? It would be interesting to hear other possible versions.

  18. #38
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    If the above version ended up in the history books (not that many are writen about social dance forms, but never mind) would you agree? It would be interesting to hear other possible versions.
    For the majority? Hard for me to say - I haven't paid quite enough attention to the scene as it developed. For me personally, no. The first main influence for me was blues. The other main one, and the one that made the most difference, was Lindy.

  19. #39
    Registered User Lost Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Towcester
    Posts
    1,274
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    Fascinating stuff.

    I have only been dancing for a few years but for me one of the key things that made me want to modify my dancing style was watching Marc and Rachel dance - it just looked so cool. I would be interested to know how their style evolved, who they were influenced by etc. I think they have only experimented with WCS relatively recently. The general trend towards slower and more varied music being played at MJ venues has obviously helped more expressive and smoother styles such as theirs to develop.

    A Marc and Rachel Ceroc classes is a very different experience from your average Ceroc night. There is a lot more emphasis on basic technique, hand circling and bouncing are actively discouraged, smoothness and maintaining connection with your partner are emphasised and slotted dancing is very much the order of the day. Just this week I was speaking to a dancer from Coventry who had come to Rugby for the first time who said, with a somewhat bemused look on their face, "This is completely different from what I am used to". It certainly is, but in a good way imo. That said it is to some extent a case of (if you can) finding a teacher who style of dancing is best suited to you. In my first year of Ceroc I went to Emma Petitt's class - now Emma is a fantastic dancer and a lovely person but her style of dancing is totally different from Marc and Rachel's. It is not that one is better than the other just the fact that they are different.

    Benefits of the slotted style? well, it makes floor craft easier and enables you to dance in a smaller space on a crowded floor, helps to maintain better balance and connection with your partner, helps followers to interpret the music and be more expressive because the leader is the one who has to get out of the way and they are less likely to be off balance.

    I think some dancers develop a bouncy hand style without necessarily having been specifically taught it, for some I think it simply starts as a way of keeping to the beat. The problem comes when they are not taught why this is a bad habit and the way in which it can interfere with the lead. In other words it is not always the case that bouncing is specifically taught, it is just that it is often not actively discouraged.
    Last edited by Lost Leader; 15th-March-2008 at 10:40 AM.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oxford
    Posts
    677
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Evolution of Dance

    I guess I took a slightly different path...

    My dancing started with ballroom in about '94/95, followed shortly after by latin american. In either of those styles, any sort of bounce is simply not dancing. A couple of key points in that, which shaped my dancing.

    Firstly, you're taught from the very start of latin to isolate your shoulders. So while your leg movements may have a bounce (especially jive, samba and quickstep), your body does not. This is more obvious in ballroom where you have the rise and fall of the dance, which accents the rhythm but could never be called a bounce (one exercise is to dance with a broomstick lying across your arms - any bounce would drop it off which is both loud and embarrassing). If you bounce, you lose your frame. If you lose your frame, you're not dancing well. As you get better at latin, you learn to isolate your arms from your frame as well.

    Secondly, the dances I fell in love with (rhumba in latin and foxtrot in ballroom) were the two dances that relied most heavily on smooth, controlled movement. Once again, bounce just ruins the dances. One teacher told me, for rhumba, to think of dancing on a beach. At the end of the dance, you should have left a pair of continuous tracks in the sand. The point being your foot (or rather your toe) should never leave the floor.

    Thirdly, after doing ceroc for a couple of years in the UK, I returned to NZ, and did about 6 months of latin dancing before going back to ceroc in NZ. Returning to latin (re-)polished a lot of my technique and the different approach to ceroc in NZ pushed my ceroc a long way from where it had been in the UK. Funnily enough, the half circle lead is never taught in NZ.

    When I dance well, this all comes together. I have a solid frame and try to lead the entire dance as one smooth movement. The controlled rise and fall from ballroom punctuates the dance. If the music's a rhumba, then all the rhumba rhythms sneak into my dancing. I never use the half circle and have a tendency towards moves that use a ballroom hold (and, as Amir has pointed out to me, I hold my elbows too high for ceroc...).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Poker / Dance jokes
    By RichardP in forum Fun and Games
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 7th-February-2008, 12:28 PM
  2. What style do you prefer to dance?
    By Ghost in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 4th-February-2008, 09:10 PM
  3. Dance related insults!
    By Easily Led in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 150
    Last Post: 1st-February-2008, 04:21 PM
  4. A new West Coast Swing Workshop/Tea Dance ??
    By Minnie M in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 23rd-January-2008, 10:24 PM
  5. Dance Accidents
    By Minnie M in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 18th-November-2007, 10:10 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •