is it really 'their loss/someone else's gain' when someone is refused?

[fletch]

I danced with a man who I believe is the "Twat in a Hat" (how can we be sure? -There's a lot of them around in the dance world, and that's not even starting on tango) a couple of weeks ago. I asked him, he agreed, and was charmingly polite. So, if, IF, this was the man, he has a nice side as well.

I don't condone boorish behaviour, but it seems a bit rich to be hounded on the forum for refusing by people who confess to regularly refusing people themselves. It sounds like he was very rude in response to Fletch's accusations, but then, he had some provocation. I've got some sympathy with his refusal to care about what other people think or say about him - isn't that a philosophy by which many of us proudly live our lives?

If anybody doesn't like his behaviour, they need only avoid him on the dance floor. I don't think a witch hunt should be carried out on the forum against some unknown person - a bit pointless anyway, as he doesn't give a monkey's!

Just reading your post again JC you say he had some provication, in what way did he? I had as far as i'm aware neaver seen him before spoke to him or danced with him.

How dose tapping someone on the arm as he was leaving the floor and saying 'would you like a dance' with a big smile on my face provication, I take it you have spoken to him or have a different story, and i'm not sure i'm reading it correctly (well I am blond and can't spell what do you expect) you have sympathy with his refusal, which one ? the one I got or Caz or maybe fruity Oranges or even the way he looked Julie from Nottingham up and down before snarling out his refusal to her.

[jivecat]

We all refuse for one reson or another, I refuse, I belive genuinely, and I allways try and go back to them, I can count the times I haven't managed it, I don't know anyone more aware of refusing people badly, but if you know differenly please feel free to speak out, if you give it you have to take it.

All refusals are genuine - it means someone genuinely doesn't want to dance with you, either at that time, or never, and that's why they are difficult to deal with. I get refused pretty regularly and it always hurts just a bit, although I have got much better at dealing with it. I almost find it easier if the refusal is rude because then I can see the funny side of it. It is never a pleasant experience and always leaves me wondering what I have done wrong, especially if it is just a flat "No thanks" with no reason given. However, it is a fact of life in the dance world as nobody can be expected, as you yourself say, to dance with just everybody on demand.

I spend hours talking to people trying to build there confidence to ask, as I have this evening, I also ask others to ask my less confident friends, to try and help with building there confidence, and I won't stand by and watch them destroyed for no good reason

It's good that you offer them support but eventually they are going to have to decide for themselves what line to take on the issue of refusals. I think confidence is something you acquire by your own efforts and actions, not something that can be delivered on a plate by someone else. Yes, the man was rude, but there are always going to be rude people and the best thing is to just get back in the saddle and move on to the next one. That is the quickest way to restore confidence, in my view. Brooding and plotting revenge doesn't actually get anyone anywhere.

maybe you might feel differently if you asked him to dance, and he said' I might later but I will have to asses you dancing ability first'

Maybe I would, but he didn't, did he? I think we should have a more balanced portrayal of this person's overall behaviour. If he had come up to you later and said, " I now see what a brilliant dancer you are, I beg you to dance with me," would you have felt differently?

Its only my opinion but there is to much of 'turning a blind eye to bad behaviour'

If someone has upset you, or been rude to you personally I think it's perfectly fine to speak to them directly about it, as long as you don't then equal them in rudeness. I've done it myself occasionally, and it's very empowering. However, that is a very different thing from trying to get up a gang on the forum to mete out various nebulous forms of revenge on someone whose motives and behaviour are unknown except for what has been reported on this forum.
If everyone who was ever accused of rudeness was excluded from venues on those grounds Ceroc's profits would fall through the floor - let's get this in perspective.

Do you have any people you dont dance with? do they know? or do you just look away and hope they don't ask.

I very occasionally refuse for similar reasons to you, and try to find the person later. There's one guy I have refused several times because I just find him creepy but I would probably dance with him once first. And there are lots of people I don't dance with, just as there are many that don't dance with me. We are just not on each other's lists. Is that so unusual? I don't think so. I normally dance with anyone who asks me, but usually wouldn't actively encourage someone I wasn't comfortable with to ask me. You mean you would??

...yes I will tell othere's to avoid him on the dance floor,

I think it's fair to warn them that he can be picky and rude, then allow them to make their own minds up.

as I also point out friendly, kind people who will not give them a look, a tut, a shigh, or dissmiss them in some other way, have you ever experenced it?

Too right I have, it just made me more determined to learn to dance as well as I could to prove them wrong.

I neaver refuse cos the pearson, looks different, smells, is to PC&P, or any other standard reason unless its so bad, and I talk to them, giving them a second chance.

I think you'd be entitled to refuse if they smell really bad or were too sleazy.

I have been called worst things than a witch, but still belive if its done for the right reasons, right will shine through.

As Jivelad kindly explained, I wasn't calling you names. I think you've got some good reasons for taking the line you have, but using a public forum to enact a vendetta against the guy is not, IMO, the right solution.

[jivecat]

Just reading your post again JC you say he had some provication, in what way did he? I had as far as i'm aware neaver seen him before spoke to him or danced with him.

How dose tapping someone on the arm as he was leaving the floor and saying 'would you like a dance' with a big smile on my face provication, I take it you have spoken to him or have a different story, and i'm not sure i'm reading it correctly (well I am blond and can't spell what do you expect) you have sympathy with his refusal, which one ? the one I got or Caz or maybe fruity Oranges or even the way he looked Julie from Nottingham up and down before snarling out his refusal to her.

What I meant is that if some complete stranger walked up to him at a venue and started complaining about his behaviour he might justifiably feel a bit miffed. As would anyone.

I was not saying I had sympathy with the refusals, or his rudeness, although most people wish to have their right to refuse to be respected.

I don't have a different story, neither have I spoken to him, apart from when I asked him to dance - assuming that was him, it would be all too easy to have a case of mistaken identity here, another reason why I don't think it's a good idea to foster revenge attacks or post negative remarks of this kind on an open forum. I'm not on the gossip network. I just don't like gangs and I'm not happy about people being judged in a knee-jerk reaction when there isn't a full spread of evidence about them. I don't like being told what to think about people either - that's partly why I asked him to dance, so I could have something on which to form my own judgement.

Other than that, I've every sympathy with the feelings of people who have been turned down, for reasons which I hope I've explained.

[fletch]

All refusals are genuine - it means someone genuinely doesn't want to dance with you, either at that time, or never, and that's why they are difficult to deal with. I get refused pretty regularly and it always hurts just a bit, although I have got much better at dealing with it. I almost find it easier if the refusal is rude because then I can see the funny side of it. It is never a pleasant experience and always leaves me wondering what I have done wrong, especially if it is just a flat "No thanks" with no reason given. However, it is a fact of life in the dance world as nobody can be expected, as you yourself say, to dance with just everybody on demand.


It's good that you offer them support but eventually they are going to have to decide for themselves what line to take on the issue of refusals. I think confidence is something you acquire by your own efforts and actions, not something that can be delivered on a plate by someone else. Yes, the man was rude, but there are always going to be rude people and the best thing is to just get back in the saddle and move on to the next one. That is the quickest way to restore confidence, in my view. Brooding and plotting revengedoesn't actually get anyone anywhere.


Maybe I would, but he didn't, did he? I think we should have a more balanced portrayal of this person's overall behaviour. If he had come up to you later and said, " I now see what a brilliant dancer you are, I beg you to dance with me," would you have felt differently?


If someone has upset you, or been rude to you personally I think it's perfectly fine to speak to them directly about it, as long as you don't then equal them in rudeness. I've done it myself occasionally, and it's very empowering. However, that is a very different thing from trying to get up a gang on the forum to mete out various nebulous forms of revenge on someone whose motives and behaviour are unknown except for what has been reported on this forum.
If everyone who was ever accused of rudeness was excluded from venues on those grounds Ceroc's profits would fall through the floor - let's get this in perspective.


I very occasionally refuse for similar reasons to you, and try to find the person later. There's one guy I have refused several times because I just find him creepy but I would probably dance with him once first. And there are lots of people I don't dance with, just as there are many that don't dance with me. We are just not on each other's lists. Is that so unusual? I don't think so. I normally dance with anyone who asks me, but usually wouldn't actively encourage someone I wasn't comfortable with to ask me. You mean you would??


I think it's fair to warn them that he can be picky and rude, then allow them to make their own minds up.

Too right I have, it just made me more determined to learn to dance as well as I could to prove them wrong.


I think you'd be entitled to refuse if they smell really bad or were too sleazy.

As Jivelad kindly explained, I wasn't calling you names. I think you've got some good reasons for taking the line you have, but using a public forum to enact a vendetta against the guy is not, IMO, the right solution.

OK I havn't masterd to mulit quote thingy, so before we have any comments 'lets get over it'

As I have already said I get refused all the time, but to do it in such a way as to completly humiliate the other pearson, IMO isn't excepterble.

I do offer support, and yes eventually they do have to make there own mind up, are you trying to say I bully people into doing what I tell them ? some times we just need someone saying 'go on it will be fine' and funny enough I didn't sit around for long I had my wonderfull son Joe to dance with, yes that will be a child in aq venue the 10 year old that respects others and follows etiquate, and as for brooding and plotting, you migh see me as some one sad with nothing else to do, but sorry to disserpoint, I havn't been sitting around brooding and plotting, but I did put myself out to travel to Marc's Garvey cos I thought he would be there. Unlike him I have manners and belived I should look him in the eye and tell him I had made comments about the way he was making people feel, and if it makes him think only once about the way he refuses than it has got me some where, one less hurt pearson.


He did say 'he may dance with me later' no he neaver asked me, mores the pitty, would I have felt differently? this disserpoints me also JC we have know each other a while and you need to ask ME that NO I WOULDN'T have felt differently, this was no ordinary refusal, nothing genuine about it, it was playing to the audiance and deliberatly hurtfull, please don't try making out that I think i'm so important that no one should refuse me, cos as far as i'm concerned were all the same just a diffenent point in a journey, maybe its that attitude that has given me the confidence to ask everyone.


I was not rude to this man on Saturday, I sat next to him and I spoke quirtly no one else would have heard our conversation, well up to the point when he shouted his derogetory comment after me as I was waling away, pathetic! and this gang on the forum some of them have been victims of his attitude and the others might also feel 'we shouldn't turn a blind eye to bad behaviour' and I havn't said at any point no he shouldn't be allowed in a venue, I don't think? unless you know differently? the impression I get is he needs help with issues he obviously has, to refuse in the way he does, make me think he is hurting for some reason? and getting some kind of satisfaction when he inflicts it on others.

hold on JC you occasionally refuse for the same resons as I have, 'thats a bit rich isn't it' so do I take it its now ok then

OK another blond moment your obviously been to cleaver for me, and its gone over my 'air head' you don't activerly encorage people when you feel uncomfertable? you meen you would? I would what you need to reword it. sorry.

So its ok to refuse some one if you think there sleazy, in who's opionion, yours or mine, but thank you for your aproval on this one, but I don't fell the need to seek your aproval when I refuse. Mine are genunine and if my dissision isn't going to change I would tell them directly and give them the reasons why.

I asked some one not to aproch the children at the Blackpool champs recently, he asked me why what had he done? and I told him he hadn't done anything it was the his dance style it was making them feel uneasy, nothing you could put your finger on, so please respect there request.

So letting the wider public know about this man allowing them to make up there own minds isn't the way, how would you prefer it handled, shall I point at him each time we are in the same venue? perhaps you would like to ask him, as it seems blatenly obvious your his spokes pearson.

[fletch]

What I meant is that if some complete stranger walked up to him at a venue and started complaining about his behaviour he might justifiably feel a bit miffed. As would anyone.

I was not saying I had sympathy with the refusals, or his rudeness, although most people wish to have their right to refuse to be respected.

I don't have a different story, neither have I spoken to him, apart from when I asked him to dance - assuming that was him, it would be all too easy to have a case of mistaken identity here, another reason why I don't think it's a good idea to foster revenge attacks or post negative remarks of this kind on an open forum. I'm not on the gossip network. I just don't like gangs and I'm not happy about people being judged in a knee-jerk reaction when there isn't a full spread of evidence about them. I don't like being told what to think about people either - that's partly why I asked him to dance, so I could have something on which to form my own judgement.

Other than that, I've every sympathy with the feelings of people who have been turned down, for reasons which I hope I've explained.

Not if that complete stranger was very poilite sofly spoken and quite factual, and they would'nt be complete strangers, if they had had an encounter a few weeks earlyer.

Right to refuse respected, yes JC you might be just getting it its about respect, once more if we did quite get it the several times I have already said, we ALL refuse from time to time, its how you do it. phew is it me?

Your the one thats gone off on one saying you danced with him and he was polite, you don't even know if it was him, JC are you reading some James Bond novel at the moment ? what revenge attacks? I teleponed Jeff to ask if he knew him, that was me, no one else, no gang, just fletch.

I do actually have an issue with your remarks on gangs, I fell you are implying that I have a gang and i'm going around bullying poor inocent victims, JC sorry to disserpoint again, I work alone, i'v neaver needed anyone one behind me to make a point, and I also don't care who they are, they could be the queen of shiba, if I think its wrong I will say something.

Isn't the forum a gang? a gang of people having a disscussion? arn't you part of that gang ?

your not happy with knee-jerk juidgement? its you who danced with some guy to form a judgement why? you don't even know if it was him, bizar.

I had a link sent to me by another froum member who had tracked him down, when I opened it, it was a good freind of mine and also a forum member not the chap at all, so the chance is you have got it wrong

is the problem hear that your not part of the gossip net work, he's from Nottingham and so are you and you didn't know anything about it.

[Dai]

At Berko, early in the evening i got refused for the first time since i was a beginner six years ago.

2nd dance of the night, very quiet blues room, only one guy left sitting down. Walked over, asked him if he would like a dance and he just said no.

No excuse, no apology just no.

I hate berko - and i don't want to go back there anytime soon. I went there once on new years eve 2006/07, i spent the whole night being refused. I have been dancing about 4.5 years now, and it was undoubtedly the worst dance evening i have ever had.

I went with 3 other people, and met a couple of friends there, that december was the first time i had ventured out beyond my local two ceroc venues - i didn't realise ceroc exsisted anywhere else!! Fletch took me all over the place that december, and every venue she took me to was really friendly and i had a great time. Berko however was awful, apart from the 5 people i knew there, i was refuse by all be 3 people for the entire evening. It shattered my confidence completely. It will be a long time before i choose to revisit that venue.

[johnnyman]

Robert Royston said an interesting thing at the end of his last class in Weston over the weekend about Champion US WCS dancer / teacher John Lindo which went along the lines of Lindo never dances with any of the top dancers / pros for the first hour of any social event he attends. He always seeks out new dancers and beginners to dance with and was applauded for stressing the importance of dancing with new people, as these are the future champs / pros / teachers of the dance.

hear, hear is what I say

best
johnnyman

[Steven666]

I hate berko - and i don't want to go back there anytime soon. I went there once on new years eve 2006/07, i spent the whole night being refused. I have been dancing about 4.5 years now, and it was undoubtedly the worst dance evening i have ever had.

I went with 3 other people, and met a couple of friends there, that december was the first time i had ventured out beyond my local two ceroc venues - i didn't realise ceroc exsisted anywhere else!! Fletch took me all over the place that december, and every venue she took me to was really friendly and i had a great time. Berko however was awful, apart from the 5 people i knew there, i was refuse by all be 3 people for the entire evening. It shattered my confidence completely. It will be a long time before i choose to revisit that venue.

What a PATHETIC place that sounds.

Remind me never to go there.

[tsh]

What a PATHETIC place that sounds.

Remind me never to go there.

You're welcome to stay away, but I think it's changed.

[Northants Girly]

Just back from Weston and catching up with this thread . . . .

JC - you and Fletch are def not taking about the same guy.

Fletch's T in the H is the guy who rudely refused YOU a dance at Burton a few weeks ago!

[Steven666]

You're welcome to stay away, but I think it's changed.

Not really an issue if it has.

Why was it like that AT ALL in the first place is the real question?

[JiveLad]

Not really an issue if it has.

Why was it like that AT ALL in the first place is the real question?

Well it's interesting to look back in my blog for November 2006 and the piece Ceroc Mad Jive Lad: Why is Berkhamsted so good?

Interestingly, though I noticed another post in which I noted that there was an announcement one evening to the effect that they had heard about some people refusing - and that should not be the case, because this is a friendly venue (which it is!).

So maybe there were some people around that time who were in a refuse mode......

[fletch]

I hate berko - and i don't want to go back there anytime soon. I went there once on new years eve 2006/07, i spent the whole night being refused. I have been dancing about 4.5 years now, and it was undoubtedly the worst dance evening i have ever had.

I went with 3 other people, and met a couple of friends there, that december was the first time i had ventured out beyond my local two ceroc venues - i didn't realise ceroc exsisted anywhere else!! Fletch took me all over the place that december, and every venue she took me to was really friendly and i had a great time. Berko however was awful, apart from the 5 people i knew there, i was refuse by all be 3 people for the entire evening. It [B]shattered my confidence completely.[/B] It will be a long time before i choose to revisit that venue.

I so remember that evening

To watch you blossom and turn from a caterpillar to a beautiful butterfly was one of big achievements that year, I watched your confidence grow I stood back watched and smiled as girls queued for 'The Tor'

Robert Royston said an interesting thing at the end of his last class in Weston over the weekend about Champion US WCS dancer / teacher John Lindo which went along the lines of Lindo never dances with any of the top dancers / pros for the first hour of any social event he attends. He always seeks out new dancers and beginners to dance with and was applauded for stressing the importance of dancing with new people, as these are the future champs / pros / teachers of the dance.

hear, hear is what I say

best
johnnyman

Gerry told me about these comments, I bet we all remember the people who were kind and patient when we first started, and like wise the ones wich wern't, its difficult even for me not to glance and think 'bet you wish you weren't to horrid when I first started dancing' but then I was 5st 7lb bigger brown hair and nothing like I look now

What a PATHETIC place that sounds.

Remind me never to go there.

You should make you own mind up, and you would have a very difference experience to Tor.

At the Champs last year I was asked who the 'corpse' was, I was a bit surprised by the pearson asking me, so I aske why? the reply I was given was, 'I would like to know who he is when I refuse him' flip me, I had to wonder if it was some kind of a wind up! this pearson should know what i'm like,


'hold me back'!

You're welcome to stay away, but I think it's changed.

No honey it hasn't changed, why do you think it has ? and why do you think she was refused and had such a hard time, maybe if you were aware of all the circumstances you would be in a position to say its changed, or is it cos you have started going there and you haven't experienced the reaction Tor got.

Just back from Weston and catching up with this thread . . . .

JC - you and Fletch are def not taking about the same guy.

Fletch's T in the H is the guy who rudely refused YOU a dance at Burton a few weeks ago!

well, well.


I hope it wasn't the lovely chap in a hat who you asked if 'is it him' we were together yesterday and this man couldn't be further from TIAH he does 'Tango and WCS I belive and would have been kind and polite.

Maybe he refused JC cos he had provication



I hear you have a youtube vidio to up load ?

Not really an issue if it has.

Why was it like that AT ALL in the first place is the real question?

i'm sorry to say, if your slightly different or don't fit in the 'perfect' box prejudice exists, not everyone can look 'with in' and judge a book by its cover.

Don't I know it!

[fletch]

(which it is!).

So maybe there were some people around that time who were in a refuse mode......

I love Berko, but I get a different reaction to the one 'Tor' got, I was there that night, and if I had know what I know now I would neaver have put her through that ordeal.

Don't think they were in refusal mode, just in the middle ages and not understaning 'the dance'

The thing is they would have to que for her like the rest of now.

See Touble and DTS comments on the dips and drops tread

[Northants Girly]

Just back from Weston and catching up with this thread . . . .

JC - you and Fletch are def not taking about the same guy.

Fletch's T in the H is the guy who rudely refused YOU a dance at Burton a few weeks ago!

Whoops - just remembered. JC's refuser wasn't wearing hat - he was one of Fletch's friends (did mention it to Fletch afterwards)

That teaches me to post while half asleep! sorry folks

[fletch]

Whoops - just remembered. JC's refuser wasn't wearing hat - he was one of Fletch's friends (did mention it to Fletch afterwards)

That teaches me to post while half asleep! sorry folks

oh well, neaver mind, i'm sure she can take it, i'll just turn a blind eye

[Twirlie Bird]

I danced with a man who I believe is the "Twat in a Hat" (how can we be sure? -There's a lot of them around in the dance world, and that's not even starting on tango) a couple of weeks ago. I asked him, he agreed, and was charmingly polite. So, if, IF, this was the man, he has a nice side as well.

I really don't think this is the same guy. A nice side to him? I really don't think so. As for charmingly polite!

I don't condone boorish behaviour, but it seems a bit rich to be hounded on the forum for refusing by people who confess to regularly refusing people themselves. It sounds like he was very rude in response to Fletch's accusations, but then, he had some provocation. I've got some sympathy with his refusal to care about what other people think or say about him - isn't that a philosophy by which many of us proudly live our lives? !

Provocation? care to explain? I was there that night and witnessed the hurt he caused. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. There is no reason to justify his behaviour.

If anybody doesn't like his behaviour, they need only avoid him on the dance floor. I don't think a witch hunt should be carried out on the forum against some unknown person - a bit pointless anyway, as he doesn't give a monkey's!

Why should we simply avoid him? Turn a blind eye safe in the knowledge of what he is doing? Why should we allow him to carry on upsetting pretty much everyone who asks him to dance? Why should we condone his behaviour?

For the record I am certainly not part of any gang.

[Lory]

Why should we allow him to carry on upsetting pretty much everyone who asks him to dance?

Out of interest, who 'does' he dance with

Does he come in a group and stick to dancing within that group or does he actually ask anyone?

[David Franklin]

Does he come in a group and stick to dancing within that group or does he actually ask anyone?

Maybe he's just there for the beer?

[Gerry]

Out of interest, who 'does' he dance with

Does he come in a group and stick to dancing within that group or does he actually ask anyone?

Sorry Lory, does that really make a difference. The nature of the MJ scene is that women and men ask each other for a dance.

If you see somebody at a new venue and he or she looks like a good dancer, that person is going to be asked for a dance, period. It is not exceptable for that person to take their time looking the other dancer up and down and say NO, or I will check out your dancing to see whether you are good enough. That is rude and nasty end of story.

If you are going to say NO, look the other person in the eye and say it, don't take a perverse pleasure in taking your time while you check the other person out to see if they are good looking enough, whether they are slim enough to dance with.

MANNERS DO NOT COST YOU ANYTHING, BE POLITE AND DANCERS WILL BE POLITE TO YOU.