Page 9 of 21 FirstFirst ... 567891011121319 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 180 of 404

Thread: One for Barry

  1. #161
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    London & environs'
    Posts
    3,938
    Thanks
    680
    Thanked 161 Times in 131 Posts

    Rep Power
    7

    Re: One for Barry

    Organised Religion was invented by the rich and powerful to control the people by brainwashing and using the fear factor.

    Fear Factor 1. If you don't follow our religious rules, when you die, you will go to hell for eternity. It's a place in the bowels of the earth, very hot, the devil lives there and you will be contantly whipped and in pain.

    This works a treat. Folks actually believe it, even today.

  2. #162
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Organised Religion was invented by the rich and powerful to control the people by brainwashing and using the fear factor.
    That still doesn't mean organised religion is all bad or that people who have a religious belief are more intellectually challenged than those without. You could describe our democratic system in the same way.

  3. #163
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny South Hampshire
    Posts
    873
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 55 Times in 29 Posts

    Rep Power
    8

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Yeah, it would have been totally insane for the guy just to leave by human means when he knew the flood was coming. Madness!
    Sorry, I don't understand your point and you seem not to have answered mine either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    If you make your own solutions by human means, it makes no difference to anyone but yourself whether you believe their is a God behind the scenes guiding you or not.
    Unfortunately it can make a huge difference, as that dead girls parents so sadly demonstrate.
    Last edited by TA Guy; 31st-March-2008 at 06:52 PM.

  4. #164
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I saw a sandwich board newspaper title the other week that had "Bishop Attacks Gay Rights Lobby" I did picture the Bishop laying into them with a metal stick, shouting "Poofs! Poofs!" - but apparantly it was only a verbal attack.

    So just the "Poofs! Poofs!" bit then.
    Yes, it was pathetic and abhorrent...yet there are still plenty of gay men and women who profess a faith in God and devotion to a particular church. Haven't they realised that religion forces them to conform???

  5. #165
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    London & environs'
    Posts
    3,938
    Thanks
    680
    Thanked 161 Times in 131 Posts

    Rep Power
    7

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    You could describe our democratic system in the same way.
    Exactly.
    Our democratic system was invented by the rich and powerful to control people by brainwashing and using the fear factor.

    Fear Factor 1. Free markets are dangerous - we will not make any profit and our economy will collapse. We will all starve to death.

  6. #166
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    That story does nothing more than remind me that the man, rather than take responsibility for his actions, abjurated(sp?) all his responsibility to God.

    And died.

    Pretty much what you would expect for anyone delusional enough to leave life threatening decisions to supernatural creatures.

    Whether that same logic can be applied in the case of the dead daughter I do not know, but it wouldn't surprize me.

    Such a pointless and insane outcome inspired by a pointless and insane belief in that case.
    In that case, indeed. The boat thing was just a story and it was actually illustrating that not all religious preachers are telling their congregation that god will send out a huge hand from the sky or send a miraculous flock of angels to save the faithful.


    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    To me that is as dangerous and as insane as relying on outright magical solutions.
    How exactly? How exactly is it insane for someone to believe that a boat or helicopter showing up to rescue them in a crisis is God answering their prayers? How, exactly, is that dangerous? It's only an opinion. It's only a belief? It gives them comfort and makes them happy? What difference does it make? It doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't make anyone strap a bomb to their body and blow anything up...it's just a point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Sometimes you get lucky, but mostly, you make your own solutions.
    Some people believe that it was God who made them and provided them with the free will to make their own solutions. What difference does it make to me or you or anyone else if that is their opinion and belief?


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    General response.

    There are arguments in favour of religion (I presume) but it doesn't work to take a criticism of religion, say 'Here's a very similar criticism that can be levelled at some other phenomenon, so you can't criticise religion on that basis.'
    Not saying that you can't criticise religion...of course you can. There's a lot to criticise, but bad things are done without religion being the route of it too and, in actual fact, religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. I don't see why you can't acknowledge that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Analogies have to contain more than superficial similarity. Supermarkets may encourage healthy eating, but they offer cholesterol and alcohol as well.

    Tesco doesn't insist that you will burn in hell if you don't patronise its shops; it doesn't rely on nutritional information written down 3,000 years ago by men with a socio-political agenda and no idea what they were writing about; it doesn't care if you buy some products at its shops and other products - a car, for example, or a mediterranean cruise - from somewhere else. And so on and so on.
    Most people are not forced to be part of a religion either and are not forced to adhere to the teachings...it's choice.


    The contradictions in religious belief are, I conclude, intolerable. The faithful deal with them in a spectrum of ways ranging from not thinking about them CofE) to trying to kill everyone who won't shut up about them (US fundamentalists).


    Intolerable? So what do you suggest? How are we to erradicate religion? How should we punish those who refuse to give up their belief in god? How will we make the majority of good, decent people who happen to go to a church pay for the minority of idiots who use religion in an abhorrent, stupid or personally profitable way?

  7. #167
    Registered User Isis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    1,398
    Thanks
    79
    Thanked 83 Times in 58 Posts

    Rep Power
    7

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    If you make your own solutions by human means, it makes no difference to anyone but yourself whether you believe their is a God behind the scenes guiding you or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Unfortunately it can make a huge difference, as that dead girls parents so sadly demonstrate.
    THE DEAD GIRLS PARENTS DID NOT USE NORMAL HUMAN MEANS, LIKE PHONING A DOCTOR TO ADMINISTER MEDICINE.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand your point and you seem not to have answered mine either.
    We have 3 people, Person A, Person B and Person C

    Person A believes in God and believes that God can magically intervene in their life through prayer alone. For example, if their home gets flooded, they believe they can ignore physical means of rescue and stay alive magically by prayer alone. If their child becomes ill, they believe they don't have to call a doctor to give her medicine to make her better, they believe they just pray and she will get better by magic. On this thread, we all agree this attitude and behaviour is stupid and dangerous. We do not agree who is ultimately to blame for this girl's death and we do not agree on the wider implications for religion.

    Person B believes in God but does not believe God operates by magical intervention in their day to day life. They believe we have to live in the real physical world and God helps those who help themselves. If person B has a sick child, they phone a doctor to get them medicine. If their home gets flooded, they evacuate to stay alive. They may still pray that these normal human interventions have a positive outcome but they do not expect that alone to work.

    Person C does not believe in God. They believe we have to live in the real physical world and help ourselves. If Person C has a sick child they phone a doctor to get them medicine. If their home gets flooded, they evacuate to stay alive.

    I posted a sermon which advised believers to behave like Person B instead of Person A. (It would be highly foolish of us to expect a priest in a Church to advise people to behave like Person C).

    My point is that there is no physical difference between Person B and Person C. Person B is in no extra danger compared to Person C. You have stated that the approach of Person B is as dangerous and insane as that of Person A and I would ask you how you justify that?

  8. #168
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Wizbit used to scare the cr@p out of me when I was 4. I mean, it was a giant talking cone with a face that did magic tricks... Freaky as.
    'Haha thisaway, haha thataway, hahathisaway, thou shalt not have sex before marriage'...I think it works.

  9. #169
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    This is the problem with religious parables - there are as many interpretations as there are listeners!!
    Why is it a problem?

  10. #170
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Intolerable to you. Not intolerable to the billions of religious people around the world.
    Thats far from a foregone conclusion - as the contradictions of other religions may well be intolerable to adherents of another. Then of course you have the non-religious who may well agree with Barry too. You're guessing

  11. #171
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    There's a lot to criticise, but bad things are done without religion being the route of it too and, in actual fact, religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. I don't see why you can't acknowledge that.
    When the Red Cross start clubbing baby seals whilst continuing their good work around the world - I'm sure we'll all use that same excuse. You know what, i think if the Red Cross did do that we would be concentrating on the clubbing. Call me strange if you wish


    Most people are not forced to be part of a religion either and are not forced to adhere to the teachings...it's choice.
    I assume you are joking ? Children grow up with a religion just as they grow up with a language , the choice only happens when you are mature enough to make it. And if you are in the wrong country denouncing religion could be a death sentence.


    Intolerable? So what do you suggest? How are we to erradicate religion? How should we punish those who refuse to give up their belief in god? How will we make the majority of good, decent people who happen to go to a church pay for the minority of idiots who use religion in an abhorrent, stupid or personally profitable way?
    I think a more secular society is a more sensible suggestion than "punishment" People should be free to believe and do what they like - without affecting the lives of others.

  12. #172
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    THE DEAD GIRLS PARENTS DID NOT USE NORMAL HUMAN MEANS, LIKE PHONING A DOCTOR TO ADMINISTER MEDICINE.
    They thought they were, they thought praying would help. They were wrong. Thats a problem.

  13. #173
    Registered User Isis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    1,398
    Thanks
    79
    Thanked 83 Times in 58 Posts

    Rep Power
    7

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Thats far from a foregone conclusion - as the contradictions of other religions may well be intolerable to adherents of another. Then of course you have the non-religious who may well agree with Barry too. You're guessing
    We're all guessing when it comes to worldwide opinion but which is the more sensible statement?

    a) The contradictions in religious belief are intolerable.

    b) The contradictions in religious belief are intolerable to some.

  14. #174
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    They thought they were, they thought praying would help. They were wrong. Thats a problem.
    How do you want to solve that? Without burning all religious leaders and devotees (unless that's the plan?), how do you want to solve this burgeoning crisis which is being caused by the scourge of religion existing, rather than caused by the blatant idiocy of the people directly involved in the extreme examples?

  15. #175
    Registered User Isis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    1,398
    Thanks
    79
    Thanked 83 Times in 58 Posts

    Rep Power
    7

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    THE DEAD GIRLS PARENTS DID NOT USE NORMAL HUMAN MEANS, LIKE PHONING A DOCTOR TO ADMINISTER MEDICINE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    They thought they were
    They did not think they were using normal human means like phoning a doctor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    they thought praying would help. They were wrong. Thats a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Person A... believes that God can magically intervene in their life through prayer alone...If their child becomes ill, they believe they don't have to call a doctor to give her medicine to make her better, they believe they just pray and she will get better by magic. On this thread, we all agree this attitude and behaviour is stupid and dangerous. We do not agree who is ultimately to blame for this girl's death and we do not agree on the wider implications for religion.
    Not bothering to read the posts again, I see.

  16. #176
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    How do you want to solve that?

    Me? i don't

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    We're all guessing when it comes to worldwide opinion but which is the more sensible statement?

    a) The contradictions in religious belief are intolerable.

    b) The contradictions in religious belief are intolerable to some.

    b) .... and here's you suggesting that Barrys intolerence was somehow strange. Bet you feel a fool now

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    They did not think they were using normal human means like phoning a doctor.
    eh ? praying is not something normal humans do ? but phoning is ? right...i...understand...

    Not bothering to read the posts again, I see.
    This from someone who missed when i said I was joking about not reading the posts Ooh the irony.

    And this reply of yours makes no sense - I suggested they thought they were displaying "normal human behaviour", that praying to heal would help and that it was a problem. And you quote back the same post I was replying to, where you agree this is a problem!? "stupid and dangerous." even. Keep off the happy la-la juice.

  17. #177
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny South Hampshire
    Posts
    873
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 55 Times in 29 Posts

    Rep Power
    8

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    How exactly? How exactly is it insane for someone to believe that a boat or helicopter showing up to rescue them in a crisis is God answering their prayers? How, exactly, is that dangerous? It's only an opinion. It's only a belief? It gives them comfort and makes them happy? What difference does it make? It doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't make anyone strap a bomb to their body and blow anything up...it's just a point of view.
    Of course, if a 'lucky' helicopter is passing it matters not whether the 'man' believes the helicopter was sent by God. If the daughter had been saved, who cares if the parents thought that was by act of God.

    The problem is, of course, that's not what the story says. That's not what happened in the case of the daughter either. Your point is completely irrelevent.

    The story states that the 'man' waited BECAUSE God would send a helicopter (or rescue him in some way). The man believed he would be saved by God so waited.
    The daughters parents believed God would save their daughter so refused medical intervention.

    It's not a case of believing after the fact, it's believing before the fact and that belief affecting decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    Some people believe that it was God who made them and provided them with the free will to make their own solutions. What difference does it make to me or you or anyone else if that is their opinion and belief?
    Ahem, again, what's that got to do with the story, or the daughter ?

    You and Isis, seemingly having marooned yourselves in a quagmire of contradiction seem to changing the goalposts as fast as you can. *shrug*.

  18. #178
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sunny South Hampshire
    Posts
    873
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 55 Times in 29 Posts

    Rep Power
    8

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Person A <snip agreed>

    Person B believes in God but does not believe God operates by magical intervention in their day to day life. They believe we have to live in the real physical world and God helps those who help themselves. If person B has a sick child, they phone a doctor to get them medicine. If their home gets flooded, they evacuate to stay alive. They may still pray that these normal human interventions have a positive outcome but they do not expect that alone to work.

    Person C <snip agreed>

    My point is that there is no physical difference between Person B and Person C. Person B is in no extra danger compared to Person C. You have stated that the approach of Person B is as dangerous and insane as that of Person A and I would ask you how you justify that?
    Person C: I accept your definition, tho he doesn't appear in the story.
    Person A: I accept your definition, the type who believes God will do outright magic, for example, conjure up an angel to rescue him.

    Person B: We have a problem, because your person B seems to survive without any magic, although he may ask for it and attribute a successful outcome to magic, he just evacuates, no magic involved according to you.

    But that's wrong.
    According to your own story person B doesn't just evacuate like you say, God may not send him an angel, but he arranges a boat. It's in the story!

    If I may remind you: "God is pretty exasperated with Barry and replies "I sent you umpteen people, two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?"

    It doesn't matter whether you take the approach of Person A: Wait for God to send an angel, or Person B: Wait for God to arrange a boat to pass by. Both are insane.
    The only sane solution is to forget God and leave with the others.

    If after that, the 'man' wants to attribute this successful solution to God rather than government funding, centuries of road building and some brave men who led the way, it's arguably delusional, but fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    THE DEAD GIRLS PARENTS DID NOT USE NORMAL HUMAN MEANS, LIKE PHONING A DOCTOR TO ADMINISTER MEDICINE.
    *sigh* And why didn't they use normal means ?

    Exactly.

  19. #179
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    When the Red Cross start clubbing baby seals whilst continuing their good work around the world - I'm sure we'll all use that same excuse. You know what, i think if the Red Cross did do that we would be concentrating on the clubbing. Call me strange if you wish
    You're strange


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I assume you are joking ? Children grow up with a religion just as they grow up with a language , the choice only happens when you are mature enough to make it. And if you are in the wrong country denouncing religion could be a death sentence.
    No, I'm not joking. I think there are far worse abuses of children than them being brought up by religious parents. Religious nutters are the same as any other type of nutter, but it's not the collective fault of religion and the vast majority of us who are brought up by religious parents escape unscathed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I think a more secular society is a more sensible suggestion than "punishment" People should be free to believe and do what they like - without affecting the lives of others.
    In what way are you not free to do what you like? From where I'm sitting, that luxury is already mine...I choose not to berate other people for their beliefs though.

  20. #180
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Near Montrose
    Posts
    221
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts

    Rep Power
    6

    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Your point is completely irrelevent.
    If it's so irrelevent, I wonder why you took the bother of replying? Although, from your reply, I'm not quite sure that you got my point.




    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Ahem, again, what's that got to do with the story, or the daughter ?
    Ahem, I'm saying that even people who follow a religion can accept that they have to make their own solutions and see life itself as the miracle and it does no harm to them, you, me or anyone else in the world. As for the daughter...her parents are completely to blame and their idea that prayer would magically heal the girl was stupid in the extreme and I would be hard pushed to find anyone with a religious background or belief to back up their actions. If you know anyone who goes to church and considers themself to be part of a religion, ask them what they think.


    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    You and Isis, seemingly having marooned yourselves in a quagmire of contradiction seem to changing the goalposts as fast as you can. *shrug*.
    Do you fancy illustating your point here? Where were the goalposts and where have they shifted to and what is the quagmire of contradiction?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •