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Thread: One for Barry

  1. #101
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    From the link you posted:

    “The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion.”

    And yet you still want to blame religion? This situation was not caused by any external religion. This situation was caused by unfit parents who failed to take adequate measures to care for the welfare of their child, based on crackpot beliefs that they chose for themselves.
    Are you serious?

    Where do you think the crackpot beliefs came from? You surely don't think they made them up themselves? Just because there isn't a church involved - either a building or a recognised branch of christianity - doesn't mean that religion gets off scot free!

    What I would not do is use the situation as a flimsy excuse to blame the University who gave the pharmacist his/her degree. I would not further assert that we must close down all Universities because we can no longer sit back and let these rich and powerful institutions train pharmacists, when we know some of them might give out the wrong advice and cause people harm.

    Adults must take responsibility for their own actions. It would appear it is you who wants to abrogate people from their personal responsibility as soon as religion is involved, when I doubt you would ever dream of doing so under other circumstances.
    You have to accept that someone, at some point, told these parents what they should believe in respect of care for their daughter. It might have been a face-to-face discussion, they might have been in the audience at some evangelical hoe-down, they might have read it in a book published by the Christian Scientists, there are all sorts of options. They did not make it up for themselves.

    But even more importantly, you seem to want to separate 'religion' and give it some sort of isolated status, cut off from the beliefs of the religious. These people are just as religious as the Pope and his immediate colleagues or the Archbishop of Canterbury; whether they follow exactly the teachings of any particular and specific sect is irrelevant - it is the religious beliefs they had that killed their daughter.

  2. #102
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    It is not at all similar. Read my words. I have not stated anywhere that there are no reasons to criticise religion. I stated quite clearly that there is no good reason to single out religion as a particular problem with respect to conformity. All groups of people / organisations / institutions require conformity, merely because that is human nature. You still have not explained why it’s more of a problem in religion than it is elsewhere.
    That is to miss the point. I don't have to say that it is more a problem with religion than in any other arena. It is a problem with religion and I can criticise it on that basis. Of course that's not my most significant criticism.

  3. #103
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Missed this earlier. Can you give me some references for the above as I'd like to read more about it. Thank you
    Nope - but you can google 'constellation' or try Wikipedia. This is something I know from my own - um - reading and learning over my lifetime.

    I can tell you that if you look at the constellation of, e.g., Sagittarius, then the stars Kaus Media, Kaus Australis, Ascella, and Kaus Borealis actually have no special spatial relation to each other.

    The first is 306 light years from earth, the second is 144 light years from earth, the third is 90 light years away, and the last is 77 light years distant. The apparent relationship between them is solely a function of them being roughly in the same direction as we look up from our planet. The same is true for the minor stars of the constellation.

    When Mars trundles 'through' Sagittarius, it is of course only a few light minutes from earth, and so its relationship to the stars of the constellation is about as significant as the relationship of a bus to the trees in front of which it passes.

    The constellations do not really look like the things they are named after - if you look at the night sky, you can't see a centaur shooting a bow; in fact the main stars of Sagittarius are called the teapot because that's as good an approximation to the shape they take up as anything else.

    Astrology, whilst it may be fun, is just invention piled on invention piled on invention. When new planets were discovered, they were incorporated into astrology as if it hadn't been proceeding in blissful ignorance - and claiming accuracy into the bargain - of those planets for centuries. As a means of obtaining information about the life we lead or the people we encounter, or even about ourselves, it's no better than numerology or graphology.

  4. #104
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    it is the religious beliefs they had that killed their daughter

    You have to accept that someone, at some point, told these parents what they should believe in respect of care for their daughter.
    It is their failure to phone doctor that killed their daughter.

    You would also have to accept that at some point these parents have been told that a doctor is the person to phone when illness strikes. They chose to ignore that. Perhaps we should blame the medical profession for not making this clear enough
    Last edited by Isis; 27th-March-2008 at 11:01 PM.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    it's no better than numerology or graphology.
    Numerology and Graphology? Now they're fantastic!

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    It is not rational to detest religion when you are under absolutely no obligation to participate in it.
    If only that were true :- why did Gordon Brown offer a free vote on stem cell research and the like recently? Why was their a religious hatred bill going through parliament? Why is there a "religion" question on the census? why did some cartoons cause rioting and death? why did some young men carry explosives onto tube trains and a bus in london? why is the Archbishop of Canterbury in the media with his latest stupid comment? etc..etc...

    tell me religion will never affect your life if you are not religious with a straight face


    not that either i, or i think Barry, detest religion. Thats your extreme reaction to criticism of it for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    From the link you posted:

    “The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion.”

    And yet you still want to blame religion?
    Yes, they DO participate in aspects of a religion i.e. praying, and praying as a solution to ill health-and that is the issue - there daughter died because of it. Its their religious beliefs that caused their daughters death, I'm sure they are perfectly aware of doctors but they thought prayer was better...

  7. #107
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Numerology and Graphology? Now they're fantastic!

  8. #108
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    It is their failure to phone doctor that killed their daughter.
    I don't think the phone can be blamed for her death...perhaps their reliance on the power of prayer has a look-in though

    You would also have to accept that at some point these parents have been told that a doctor is the person to phone when illness strikes.
    Perhaps, perhaps not - we can be sure they were told the power of prayer would heal though, thats what they used. It didn't work.

    Perhaps we should blame the medical profession for not making this clear enough

    Wouldn't it make more sense to criticise the BAD advice on the power of prayer that caused the death rather than any GOOD advice about going to a Doctor?

  9. #109
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    not that either i, or i think Barry, detest religion. Thats your extreme reaction to criticism of it for some reason.
    He's already stated that he does detest religion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    My detestation (rather than hatred - seems the 'wrong' word to me) of religion is perfectly rational.
    I'm not having an extreme reaction, I'm just reading what the guy posts, unlike you obviously.

  10. #110
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    tell me religion will never affect your life if you are not religious with a straight face
    I didn't say it would never affect your life, I just don't see why it affects Barry's life so badly.

    I went through my angry phase with religion in my late teens / early twenties and so decided to chuck it, as do a lot of people who are brought up in an organised religion. Those days are now a dim and distant memory. I can't imagine why anyone would still be spitting nails over the subject on a regular basis when they're pushing 50, instead of just letting go and moving on.

    Occassionally it does affect my life now, like when I send my child to a non-denominational school only to find it's a Church of Scotland school in disguise, but it's not the end of the world.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    I can't imagine why anyone would still be spitting nails over the subject on a regular basis when they're pushing 50, instead of just letting go and moving on.
    Ian Paisley is apoplexic.
    Last edited by Astro; 28th-March-2008 at 07:01 PM.

  12. #112
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    Ian Paisley is apoplexic.
    His son's ugly too.

  13. #113
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    I didn't say it would never affect your life, I just don't see why it affects Barry's life so badly.

    I went through my angry phase with religion in my late teens / early twenties and so decided to chuck it, as do a lot of people who are brought up in an organised religion. Those days are now a dim and distant memory. I can't imagine why anyone would still be spitting nails over the subject on a regular basis when they're pushing 50, instead of just letting go and moving on.

    Occasionally it does affect my life now, like when I send my child to a non-denominational school only to find it's a Church of Scotland school in disguise, but it's not the end of the world.
    Some people objected to nuclear weapons, others didn't. Some people objected to the poll tax, others didn't. Some people objected to cruise missiles at Greenham Common, others didn't. What's objectionable about the fact that I feel more strongly about the damage caused by religion than you do?

    You will have - I suspect - noticed that I also fulminate against ridiculous claims of all supernatural types - homeopathy to spiritualism, and beyond! And because they are ridiculous, I ridicule them. Some people slag me off (hey, Rocky! how's it hangin'?) others PM me and say 'I'd say that if I didn't know I'll get flamed for saying it'.

  14. #114
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    He's already stated that he does detest religion:
    I missed that

    I'm just reading what the guy posts, unlike you obviously.
    I don't have enough time to read, consider and post - so i do the post bit and pay lip service to the other two

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    I didn't say it would never affect your life, I just don't see why it affects Barry's life so badly.
    "your" is a general term for everyone including Barry. So what you're saying is "I didn't say it would never affect your life, I just don't see why it affects your life so badly". Which is confusing to say the least. Of course if you want the specific WHY, then ask him, or check he hasn't told you already

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    What's objectionable about the fact that I feel more strongly about the damage caused by religion than you do?
    Nothing, just don't pretend you're not being emotional about it when you are and don't waste your energy and give yourself hypertension by feeling too strongly about something you can't change.

  16. #116
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    "your" is a general term for everyone including Barry. So what you're saying is "I didn't say it would never affect your life, I just don't see why it affects your life so badly". Which is confusing to say the least.
    No it isn't. Makes perfect sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    "Of course if you want the specific WHY, then ask him, or check he hasn't told you already
    I already have. I take it you didn't read that post either

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    If your experiences tell you there is nothing more to life, that should be good enough for you personally. Why then do you give the impression of not being at peace with this issue? Why do you need everyone to be definite, specific and believe the same thing as you?

    Whether he answers or not is his own business.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Whether he answers or not is his own business.
    Sounds like you're telling him what he thinks, rather than asking

  18. #118
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Sounds like you're telling him what he thinks, rather than asking
    No, I'm telling him the impression I'm getting from actually reading what he posts (an alien concept to you, I know ) but questioning whether my impression is accurate or not.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    No, I'm telling him the impression I'm getting from actually reading what he posts (an alien concept to you, I know ) but questioning whether my impression is accurate or not.
    Hmmm , you said : Why do you need everyone to be definite, specific and believe the same thing as you? ... sounds like you know already he wants everyone to believe the same as him an you just want confirmation of your "fact"

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Nothing, just don't pretend you're not being emotional about it when you are and don't waste your energy and give yourself hypertension by feeling too strongly about something you can't change.
    Clearly there are emotions involved - I'm not an automaton - but that isn't 'emotion' as in 'you're being emotional about this'.

    No energy wasted.

    No hypertension - blood pressure on the low side, last time I was tested.

    Don't agree that I can't change things. A single post might make one person examine something which previously they had taken for granted. That's a change.

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