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Thread: One for Barry

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Religion does demand conformity. Res ipsa loquitur - if there is no requirement to comply with a set of rules and precepts there can't be a religion in the first place.
    Society demands conformity. There is no good reason to single out conformity in religion as a particular problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    If you want to know why I am not comfortable with the idea (although, if pressed, I may retreat to the position) that people who want to believe should be left alone to believe what they want, then read this.

    Unless one believes that children are in some sense 'the property' of their parents, then this is tantamount to murder. Preceded by torture.

    Other religions or religious beliefs are less obviously dangerous to the children of believers but none the less offensive for that.
    Come off it. We could find umpteen cases of child abuse and neglect that are not connected to religion. Dreadful and dangerous parenting should not be tolerated whether it is connected to religion or not.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well, I wasn't offended by yours.

    Oh, wait a minute though...
    Was this one wasn't it?


    Oh...and where the hell was my card?

    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: One for Barry

    As it happens, I received two Christmas cards today They had been sent to my old address. How many times do I have to give people my new address before they use it?

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    Re: One for Barry

    A couple of years ago I saw a movie called "God on my Side" - not normally something I would bother with, but I have a lot of respect for the guy presenting the movie and also in the movie. It was scary how extremism - regardless of the religion - can be! Below is a snippet about Andrew Denten and the movie:

    Denton's first feature length documentary, God On My Side, documents his visit to the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, and was first shown at the Sydney Film Festival in June 2006 with plans to show it as a TV special on ABC's Enough Rope. It was screened in Australian cinemas from 2 November 2006. During interviews related to the film, he revealed he is an agnostic. However, Denton has also insisted he is not anti-Christian in interviews he has done.[4]
    God On My Side

    Review by Margaret Pomeranz
    Andrew Denton’s curiosity about what makes true believers tick led him to the 63rd Convention of Religious Broadcasters in Gaylord Texas to make the documentary GOD ON MY SIDE.

    In quintessential Denton style he throws interesting questions at the people he meets.

    Although George Bush features intermittently in the documentary, the most political it gets is about fundamental Christianity’s support for Israel.

    In comparison to Andrew Denton’s cheeky past as a broadcaster his approach here is fairly measured.

    It’s interesting actually, because the people interviewed speak their minds about their faith and some may find that funny or quaint or out of touch with a contemporary world. But Denton doesn’t send them up, even though he hints at himself as a non-believer.

    What is interesting is a look at this powerful world, the world of evangelist broadcasting specifically in the United States but it exists here in Australia as well, that is influencing global politics these days. This insight is valuable.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Was this one wasn't it?


    Yeah, well, I've adjusted the blinds since then.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Society demands conformity. There is no good reason to single out conformity in religion as a particular problem.
    Well, I think there is. Pressure to conform, and conforming itself, are not always good things.
    You assertion is similar to 'we all have to buy food so there's no reason to criticise supermarkets'.
    Come off it. We could find umpteen cases of child abuse and neglect that are not connected to religion. Dreadful and dangerous parenting should not be tolerated whether it is connected to religion or not.
    Quite right. But in this case the parents abusive attitude towards the child was caused by religion. If the death had been caused by, e.g, a local pharmacist who'd given them careless advice which led them to treat the child's illness in the wrong way - wouldn't we criticise the person who told them what to do?

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You assertion is similar to 'we all have to buy food so there's no reason to criticise supermarkets'.
    No one is so attached to their local supermarket that they would be quite as offended by the criticism.

    "Tesco have had a reorg - that is so inconvenient and it forces us to walk round the whole shop until we find out where everything is"
    Tesco Supporter : "It is not for us to question Tesco, they are merely following the word of the shareholder. How dare you criticise. You are bitter because you hate Tesco..etc..."

    Quite right. But in this case the parents abusive attitude towards the child was caused by religion. If the death had been caused by, e.g, a local pharmacist who'd given them careless advice which led them to treat the child's illness in the wrong way - wouldn't we criticise the person who told them what to do?
    I suppose we could argue that it was "caused by ignorance" rather than religion. But if ther parents firmly believed that "prayer will help" its that that is the problem rather than their ignorance - so really, it looks like religion WAS the cause.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    "Tesco have had a reorg - that is so inconvenient and it forces us to walk round the whole shop until we find out where everything is"
    Tesco Supporter : "It is not for us to question Tesco, they are merely following the word of the shareholder. How dare you criticise. You are bitter because you hate Tesco..etc..."
    I was thinking more of these sorts of criticisms - supermarkets damage the environment by using too much packaging; they damage local communities by out-competing small retailers; they exercise monopolistic control over their suppliers; and so forth.

    But yes.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I suppose we could argue that it was "caused by ignorance" rather than religion. But if ther parents firmly believed that "prayer will help" its that that is the problem rather than their ignorance - so really, it looks like religion WAS the cause.
    Well, if ignorance were involved, one would expect the parents to seek help and advice for their daughter in the face of serious health problems. Doing nothing, despite knowing that you weren't sure what to do, would be imbecility rather than ignorance.

    No, what we appear to have here were parents who thought they knew what to do, because other people (without ANY EVIDENCE to back up their claims) had taught them that Mr Old Whitebeard in the sky would heal their child if they only prayed hard enough and with sufficient faith.

    AFAIK Jesus is not on record as explicitly saying that serious sickness would be caused by prayer, and so the assertions put forward by people like Mary Baker Eddy are based on the flimsiest of spurious interpretations of three words in that NT book and 4 words in that NT book and the assertion that every word of the whole bible can take the weight of an entire philosophy of life. Even if Jesus did say that, there's plenty of evidence that people who are prayed over by hordes of christian friends and relatives die at the same rate as people who are not.

    But religious teachers of that ilk don't encourage their flock to go out and check to see whether the things they are told are wrong. They are told that people who try to make them see things from a rational point of view are tempters, spawn of satan, involved in a conspiracy to turn good christian people away from the path of righteousness, and they should be on their guard against them.

    So yes, religion is responsible here. It's easy to see that if these parents had not acquired a hopelessly useless understanding of the way the universe works they would have taken their daughter to a doctor and she would be alive today. No doubt they are consoling themselves with the contented thought that it's all part of god's plan.

    Did you see the picture of the little girl, drawing on the pavement in a festival last year? She looked so happy.

    The situation makes me puke.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I'm afraid I got hopelessly lost around about 'Manchester United dressed in gym slips' and found myself wondering W|T|F you've been smoking!!
    You seem to have difficulty following analogies why is that ?

    If you have a pathological hate of all things religious wouldn’t that cloud your judgement on religious matters?

    Let’s try a simple one

    I hate water I think it taste like sand

    Does that make me open to ideas about the qualities of water?

    In nutshell what you ‘think’ can ‘cloud’ your objective and subjective judgement

    This is a general comment not aimed at you apart from the analogy bit

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Let’s try a simple one

    I hate water I think it taste like sand

    Does that make me open to ideas about the qualities of water?
    Yes, a personal dislike does not stop you being open minded.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Yes, a personal dislike does not stop you being open minded.
    Agree, but it can ?

    Ones own view can surely alter your view of the world

    People involved in the slave trade may not have been persuaded that salvery was wrong regardless of the arguments etc .

    The evidence you gave them would be met with counter evidence

    A bit like the roundabout re god exists or not

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Agree, but it can ?

    It can, but it doesnt mean it will. But you have a point. There was a good example of that on TV last night - some real life CSI thing, where two teams analyse a replica of a real life crime scene, gather evidence, view interview tapes and present their findings and evidence at the end. One team got it right and built up a trail of evidence - a homeless mentally ill man murdered the girl in the house - the other team had a domineering woman who took a dislike to the girls brother and her "evidence" that he clearly murdered her, consisted of the fact that he had a collection of skulls, comic books and he liked to play violent computer games.

    I think her jobtitle was "wellness consultant" or something...

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    If you have a pathological hate of all things religious wouldn’t that cloud your judgement on religious matters?
    Well, there's a problem there, bor.

    I don't have a pathological hatred of anything or anybody. My detestation (rather than hatred - seems the 'wrong' word to me) of religion is perfectly rational.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Follow up to the news of the death of Madeleine Neumann.

    In today's Fox News Online, her mother is quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxNews
    Her mother, Leilani Neumann, told The Associated Press that ... the family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said.
    Which supports my point that religious people nearly always think there is nothing remarkable in what they believe.

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    Re: One for Barry

    For those of you who are interested in what sort of people, what sort of believers these parents were, I found this - um - thing, written by the mother.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Quite right. But in this case the parents abusive attitude towards the child was caused by religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    so really, it looks like religion WAS the cause.
    From the link you posted:

    “The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion.”

    And yet you still want to blame religion? This situation was not caused by any external religion. This situation was caused by unfit parents who failed to take adequate measures to care for the welfare of their child, based on crackpot beliefs that they chose for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    If the death had been caused by, e.g, a local pharmacist who’d given them careless advice which led them to treat the child’s illness in the wrong way - wouldn’t we criticise the person who told them what to do?
    Absolutely, I would blame the local pharmacist.

    What I would not do is use the situation as a flimsy excuse to blame the University who gave the pharmacist his/her degree. I would not further assert that we must close down all Universities because we can no longer sit back and let these rich and powerful institutions train pharmacists, when we know some of them might give out the wrong advice and cause people harm.

    Adults must take responsibility for their own actions. It would appear it is you who wants to abrogate people from their personal responsibility as soon as religion is involved, when I doubt you would ever dream of doing so under other circumstances.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You assertion is similar to 'we all have to buy food so there's no reason to criticise supermarkets'.
    It is not at all similar. Read my words. I have not stated anywhere that there are no reasons to criticise religion. I stated quite clearly that there is no good reason to single out religion as a particular problem with respect to conformity. All groups of people / organisations / institutions require conformity, merely because that is human nature. You still have not explained why it’s more of a problem in religion than it is elsewhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    "Tesco have had a reorg - that is so inconvenient and it forces us to walk round the whole shop until we find out where everything is"
    Tesco Supporter : "It is not for us to question Tesco, they are merely following the word of the shareholder. How dare you criticise. You are bitter because you hate Tesco..etc..."
    Oh purleese. Let’s try it again with a bit more realism and use Barry’s example of criticisms:

    Biased Person with Agenda: “Tesco damage the environment by using too much packaging; they damage local communities by out-competing small retailers; they exercise monopolistic control over their suppliers; and so forth (so far, so good until..) I detest Tesco and we must all stop shopping there. Furthermore, we must close down all supermarkets and anyone who still wants to shop in them is a stupid, cretinous nutjob.”

    Objective Person: “I agree there are problems with Tesco *but I still want to shop there / *and I have chosen not to shop there but it’s not our business where other people choose to shop and I don’t think it is necessary to call people offensive names while discussing this.”

    *delete as appropriate

    Sidekick of Biased Person with Agenda (deliberately missing the point):
    “ You are only offended by the criticism of Tesco because you are so attached to Tesco.”

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I don't have a pathological hatred of anything or anybody. My detestation (rather than hatred - seems the 'wrong' word to me) of religion is perfectly rational.
    It is not rational to detest religion when you are under absolutely no obligation to participate in it. I am afraid you do not come across as rational in relation to this issue, although you try hard to find rational justifications for your opinions. It comes across to me that this is an entirely emotional issue for you.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Now that we know that there is no relationship between the stars of a constellation, let alone between them and the planets which appear to wander along the ecliptic, other than their visual appearance to earthbound eyes
    Missed this earlier. Can you give me some references for the above as I'd like to read more about it. Thank you

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