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  1. #1
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    One for Barry

    My son loves this clip...

    YouTube - Religion - Marcus Brigstocke

    I find it very funny, coz it is so true (IMHO).

    Anyone find it not funny? If so why?

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Anyone find it not funny?
    Yes it was funny...especially these bits.

    "Stop pretending you're celibate to cover up the fact that you are gay or a nonse"

    &

    Regarding the girl who took her school to court so she could wear a ring with Jesus written on it to prove she was a virgin and staying true to Jesus.

    "If you want to wear a ring that tells everyone you are not having sex, you can get married like the rest of us"

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    If so why?
    I've always likes Marcus Brigstocke. His stand up routines are always very well observed and well delivered.

    With regard to what he said, I don't think I'm giving any secrets away by saying to everything he said.

    I wish he was on the forum.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I wish he was on the forum.
    I think he would be banned within one day - coz he sais it straight.

    So often I am tempted... and with a dry sence of humour, there will always be one or two with a centre parting, banging thier drum!! Then it takes time to explain etc.etc. blah blah... it was not about you... hey, it was humour... big hug for you ... etc...

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    My son loves this clip...

    YouTube - Religion - Marcus Brigstocke
    As a regular listener to The NOW show on radio 4, not only have I heard this routine before, I heard it when it was very first broadcast. Listened to all his spots on the show, and also his earlier solo show, Giles Wemmbley-Hogg (er...investigates, or sounds off, or something).

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    Cool Re: One for Barry

    Well shhhhh... don't let Barry see this.
    Last edited by StokeBloke; 30th-June-2009 at 03:11 PM.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Would now be a bad time to mention I'm a Christian?

    I actually thought it was a funny clip despite one or two sentences, but then that sort of viewpoint is so widely held that I'm used to hearing it. Faith is a bit like aviation in the whole global warming dispute - it gets picked on because it's an easy target despite not actually being anything like the primary contributor to the problem. The problem isn't religion, it's people. Cultures where the people are religious suffer no more or less violence IMHO than cultures where they're not - it just gets blamed on religion because it's easier than facing up to what human nature really is, with or without any sort of faith.

    I know full well I'm going to get the usual gamut of sneering responses. Fill yer boots.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Would now be a bad time to mention I'm a Christian?

    I actually thought it was a funny clip despite one or two sentences, but then that sort of viewpoint is so widely held that I'm used to hearing it. Faith is a bit like aviation in the whole global warming dispute - it gets picked on because it's an easy target despite not actually being anything like the primary contributor to the problem. The problem isn't religion, it's people. Cultures where the people are religious suffer no more or less violence IMHO than cultures where they're not - it just gets blamed on religion because it's easier than facing up to what human nature really is, with or without any sort of faith.

    I know full well I'm going to get the usual gamut of sneering responses. Fill yer boots.
    No sneering here.

    I can see one or two sentances were a bit over the the line - but you need to cross the line to understand where the line is..

    Unfortunately human nature is tribal - which then comes down to defence of the tribe, or expansion of the tribe.

    When the tribe, becomes a religious tribe, it can be bigger than defined geographical areas or race...

    The oxymoron, is that religion promotes peace and love (or so some think), but war and killing, is so often the outcome... Maybe that does come back to the basics of human nature.

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    Cool Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Would now be a bad time to mention I'm a Christian?

    I actually thought it was a funny clip despite one or two sentences, but then that sort of viewpoint is so widely held that I'm used to hearing it. Faith is a bit like aviation in the whole global warming dispute - it gets picked on because it's an easy target despite not actually being anything like the primary contributor to the problem. The problem isn't religion, it's people. Cultures where the people are religious suffer no more or less violence IMHO than cultures where they're not - it just gets blamed on religion because it's easier than facing up to what human nature really is, with or without any sort of faith.

    I know full well I'm going to get the usual gamut of sneering responses. Fill yer boots.
    No sneering here. We can have different ideas and beliefs without coming to blows over it

    I saw it and thought that in much the same way we are often exposed to the ideas of religion, it was fair enough to hear those of someone who holds a different opinion. If someone's faith is strong, then it wouldn't be shaken by the rantings of this young man after all.

    I thought he put forward a fairly good case for non-religious views. It's hard to say that the faith and beliefs of people are not effecting the majority of the world's population. Non-believers are drawn into religious fights and he's basically saying that there are many people who find that is not right. As for any parts being 'over the line' - I didn't feel any of his points were outrageous. Maybe worded for comedic effect, but on the whole he was putting forward ideas that thousands of people share, but are too frightened to verbalise.

    As Dave Allen used to say... may your God be with you.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    It's hard to say that the faith and beliefs of people are not effecting the majority of the world's population. Non-believers are drawn into religious fights and he's basically saying that there are many people who find that is not right.
    Quite true, but that is not exclusive to religion. Nationalism, economics, and plain old fear draw people into fights just as effectively by giving rational sane human beings a reason to go to war that they wouldn't otherwise have. In most cases as with so-called religious conflicts, the problem is a few charismatic nutjobs persuading large numbers of people that the rightness of their cause (be that faith, territory, oil, whatever) requires the invasion, conquering or even extermination of another group of people. If I can risk invoking Godwin's Law and subsequent Modly wrath, here's a quote from Hermann Goering (yes, that one) that sums it up quite well:

    "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

    Religion provides a unifying and emotionally involving platform for such large-scale manipulation in many cases, among other things as I've mentioned. However even a quick look into the basic principles of almost any faith will show you that violence in the name of religion is a sign of having completely missed the point. Stuff like this clip doesn't bother me nearly as much as some of the things you hear said in complete seriousness - when we were over in Seattle visiting family a few years ago, they took us to a rodeo (which was ace), but the announcer at one point asked the spectators to "remember the American military, doing God's work around the world". That made me really very angry because there is no way that the stuff they get up to is Godly, whether or not the individuals involved are religious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov
    Many believers rise above that, and take personal responsibility anyway; but that is despite their religion, and not because of it. Other believers simply follow the rules, believing that they can depend on other people and ancient writings to tell them how to behave.
    I can only speak for Christianity here, but it quite definitely does require personal responsibility. A person always has the choice to do something they believe to be right, or not. Choosing to follow a religion involves personal responsibility by definition. Much as a ceroc teacher couldn't blame Ceroc UK for their delivering a poor class, a follower of any given religion can't blame their personal choices and failings on their faith. As for being told how to behave, that only becomes a problem if you claim abdication of personal responsibility, which can't be reasonably justified. I would rather learn from other people's teaching, ancient or new, than try to work it out myself, but in either case again I cannot ascribe my own choices to someone else just because I am making them in accordance with something I've learnt from someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke
    No sneering here. We can have different ideas and beliefs without coming to blows over it
    Certainly. I was perhaps a little too defensive I'm used to posting on a Christian forum where discussions like this can get very heated and personal very quickly. I'm all for a good-natured chat

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRobMan View Post
    Would now be a bad time to mention I'm a Christian?

    I actually thought it was a funny clip despite one or two sentences, but then that sort of viewpoint is so widely held that I'm used to hearing it. Faith is a bit like aviation in the whole global warming dispute - it gets picked on because it's an easy target despite not actually being anything like the primary contributor to the problem. The problem isn't religion, it's people. Cultures where the people are religious suffer no more or less violence IMHO than cultures where they're not - it just gets blamed on religion because it's easier than facing up to what human nature really is, with or without any sort of faith.

    I know full well I'm going to get the usual gamut of sneering responses. Fill yer boots.
    Brigstock was not setting out a reasoned argument, but a polemic designed to generate laughs. Of course it was over the line.

    The problem, although religious people don't recognise it, is religion, and not people.

    Religion promotes a credulous world-view, one which makes people prone to a way of conducting themselves that abrogates personal responsibility. Many believers rise above that, and take personal responsibility anyway; but that is despite their religion, and not because of it. Other believers simply follow the rules, believing that they can depend on other people and ancient writings to tell them how to behave.

    Thus those who in Africa promote the catholic faith must also fulminate against the use of condoms, although many [if not all] of them must know that in doing so they are helping to spread AIDS and poverty caused by overpopulation. Any non-religious person of adequate education would never, never do such a thing, because it is so obviously and self-evidently wrong. (So would many religious people, obviously, if not of the catholic faith.)

    As for saying religion is an easy target - have you any idea how powerful churches are? Religion is only an easy target in the same way that America is an easy target. It might be a large target, and easy to hit; but attacking it can be dangerous and it's almost impossible to throw damage points.

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    Re: One for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Religion promotes a credulous world-view, one which makes people prone to a way of conducting themselves that abrogates personal responsibility.
    For that statement to be a meaningful comment on relgion it would have to suppose that people are not "credulous" and "prone to conducting themselves [in ways] that abrogate personal responsibility".

    My experience - along with vast volumes of social and psychological research - suggests that human nature is fundementally credulous and prone to conducting oneself in ways that abrogate personal responsibility.

    In fact, blaming religion for the world's ills is, in my opinion, a great example of trying to blame something other than human nature for the nature of human behaviour. If that's not abrogating responsibility on the grandest scale, I don't know what is (ironically, if there is a God, then Christianity could be excused for its behavour; if there's not as God, then religion must be a manifestation of human nature itself).

    I guess what I'm saying is that you've got the causality around the wrong way. Religion does not create the negative aspects of human nature. It's the bad parts of human nature that have created religion. Blaming some reification of human behaviour for human behaviour - religion or anything else - is creating a false idol. It is, in a curious sense, a form of religion.

    Humans are a nasty piece of work. As much as we're capable of good, we're also capable of great evil. Christianity teaches us that it's because we fell when Eve took the apple from the snake. I think the blame lies in our most fundemental genetic makeup.

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