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Thread: A fine line between Man and Monster

  1. #41
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Wow, do they really do that if you agree to having your DNA on record?
    Yep.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    So there's a risk that my information MIGHT be lost or abused.
    Pretty much a certainty, I'd expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    If that means that there might be less chance of my loved ones being raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered is it worth the risk?
    Why is there less risk of crime? You think rapists and murderers and torturers weigh the risk / benefit ratio of their crimes in a calm and rational fashion? You think that the fear of being caught deters criminals? Because, I have to say, there's no evidence to support that concept. Propery crimes, yes - they're crimes of opportunity. But violent crime, no.

    So the most potential benefit is that there's possibly a slightly better chance that violent criminals might be caught a bit more quickly, after your loved ones had been raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered. Which is a good thing, but it's not exactly much of a consolation.

    And for the money it would cost - £18 billion - I'd estimate you could recruit 30,000 new police officers instead. Which seems like a lot to me.

    Finally, if criminals can evade arrest by the cunning ploy of not answering the door to the policeman, I don't hold up much hope for crime prevention via sophisticated database analysis techniques. Technology really doesn't solve anything if your basic processes are incorrect.

  2. #42
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    If that's that your major concern, database here we come.
    F.f.s. in the grand scheme, who gives a fat rat's?
    Seriously what would happen to the Gerry Springer show or ones like it?

    re 'you’re not the father'

    You could do a test at birth to find out who your father was ?

    In Alabama I hear 'your not the mother', is equally popular

    These things have to be thought through

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Why is there less risk of crime? You think rapists and murderers and torturers weigh the risk / benefit ratio of their crimes in a calm and rational fashion? You think that the fear of being caught deters criminals? Because, I have to say, there's no evidence to support that concept. Propery crimes, yes - they're crimes of opportunity. But violent crime, no.

    So the most potential benefit is that there's possibly a slightly better chance that violent criminals might be caught a bit more quickly, after your loved ones had been raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered. Which is a good thing, but it's not exactly much of a consolation.
    You've pretty much answered your own question there DJ. The sick individuals that do these horrific crimes tend to not be one off's. Therefore, if they are caught quicker and locked up, it follows that the risk to potential victims decreases.

  4. #44
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So the most potential benefit is that there's possibly a slightly better chance that violent criminals might be caught a bit more quickly, after your loved ones had been raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered. Which is a good thing, but it's not exactly much of a consolation.

    And for the money it would cost - £18 billion - I'd estimate you could recruit 30,000 new police officers instead. Which seems like a lot to me.
    And if it did help to catch lots more criminals, then just think of how many more jails we'd need to build. We can't even house the criminals we can catch without a DNA database! So add considerably more onto that total...

    Not that this is a reason not to improve our ability to catch and prosecute criminals of course. But is there a way money could be better spent?

  5. #45
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    If that's that your major concern, database here we come.
    F.f.s. in the grand scheme, who gives a fat rat's?
    Funny that you have picked up on sensationalism when I have mentioned other valid reasons. I elaborate on the latter.

    Employers can use DNA records to select against you because of your genetic information e.g. predisposition to illness. Who knows they may even select personality traits from these records.

    Insurance will by definition is the spread of risk so that the insurers take the rough with the smooth, can select against life insurance applicants based on their DNA and load the premium to the point where some people will be uninsurable. This could apply to endowment mortgage applications. This means that they are no longer taking a gamble like a bookmaker does but rather making a near certain profit on every policy.

    Medical insurance can become prohibitive for some people. Another insurance point is that it you choose to have acccess to your DNA records and you do not disclose all that you know about yourself on your application form, your policy can be invalidated for non disclosure.

    The information contained in your DNA is much more important and revealing than your address and bank details. This relates to your very make up.(I can see a few jokes coming). I can easily envisage a government department giving you a negative response because some stupid git has been at the Database and interpreting something detrimental about you.

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Not that this is a reason not to improve our ability to catch and prosecute criminals of course. But is there a way money could be better spent?
    Such as?

    I say spend the money on the DNA testing. Forget more prisons, just spend the money on a few electric chairs and watch the murderers fry.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Why is there less risk of crime? You think rapists and murderers and torturers weigh the risk / benefit ratio of their crimes in a calm and rational fashion? You think that the fear of being caught deters criminals? Because, I have to say, there's no evidence to support that concept. Propery crimes, yes - they're crimes of opportunity. But violent crime, no.

    I was going to look at Saudi but im afraid you might be true, they arrested 57 men for flirting so in guess the deterrents aren't working at present



    Saudi Arabian men arrested for flirting - Mideast/N. Africa - MSNBC.com

    Im sure they would work wonders with our feral youth

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Seriously what would happen to the Gerry Springer show or ones like it?
    Its Jerry Springer Stewart not Gerry... *** dont offend the master of crappo television.

    Anyway, MO based on what ive read so far is that if we are going to start DNA from birth you might as well do all new borns and all people who enter the uk.

    Whilst i agree most men are the ones who commit certain types of crimes there are still plenty of women that commit just as horrific crimes but of a different genre. Murder of pregnant women for example to get the baby. Baby snatching, murder of husbands, GBH.

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    Employers can use DNA records to select against you because of your genetic information e.g. predisposition to illness. Who knows they may even select personality traits from these records.
    Have you been watching Gattaca again?

  10. #50
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    All the non-murderous ones should be happy to give their DNA as they have nothing to hide.

    Aah that old turkey..."if you have nothing to hide" have you not seen Gattaca ?

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    And for the money it would cost - £18 billion - I'd estimate you could recruit 30,000 new police officers instead. Which seems like a lot to me.
    £18 billion!! that is a hell of a lot of money by all accounts. If it will really cost that much, the chances of this happenning is precisely NIL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    And if it did help to catch lots more criminals, then just think of how many more jails we'd need to build. We can't even house the criminals we can catch without a DNA database! So add considerably more onto that total...

    Not that this is a reason not to improve our ability to catch and prosecute criminals of course. But is there a way money could be better spent?

    We could start by keeping the ones that are caught and found guilty there in the first place! and for as long as $loody necessary!
    How often do we have people who are freed too early who go on perpetrating the same horrible crimes.

    It does not take £18 billion to do that.

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    £18 billion!! that is a hell of a lot of money by all accounts. If it will really cost that much, the chances of this happenning is precisely NIL.



    :.
    how much we spending on the olympics?

  13. #53
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Have you been watching Gattaca again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Aah that old turkey..."if you have nothing to hide" have you not seen Gattaca ?
    Have you two started up a DVD rental business?

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Have you been watching Gattaca again?
    No, worse, I worked in insurance for 20 years, worse than bookmakers i am afraid to say.

  15. #55
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    I say spend the money on the DNA testing. Forget more prisons, just spend the money on a few electric chairs and watch the murderers fry.
    Starting with Prince Philip, no doubt, seeing as he murdered Diana, after all...
    Last edited by David Bailey; 28th-February-2008 at 05:26 PM. Reason: Can't spell :(

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    £18 billion!! that is a hell of a lot of money by all accounts. If it will really cost that much, the chances of this happenning is precisely NIL.

    Same as the chance of city bonuses being under £18 billion by year 2010 as nil


    City bonuses hit record high with £14bn payout | Business | The Guardian

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Starting with Prince Philip, no doubt, seeing as her murdered Diana, after all...
    Exactly.

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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    We could start by DNA testing all of the youth, who are likely to have longer criminal careers. A government could identify the "monster" genes and abort those foetus that carry them, and neuter the carriers. Or a government could draft the carriers as troops. I was born when Hitler was in power. "Risk of abuse of power" means something to me.

  19. #59
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Raul View Post
    £18 billion!! that is a hell of a lot of money by all accounts. If it will really cost that much, the chances of this happenning is precisely NIL.
    From the LSE study, here:

    We estimate the likely cost of the ten-year rollout of the proposed identity cards scheme will be between £10.6 billion and £19.2 billion, with a median of £14.5 billion. This
    figure does not include public or private sector integration costs, nor does it take into
    account possible cost overruns
    So it could conceivably be as "low" as £10 billion, or £1 billion a year. Assuming it all goes smoothly, it's all perfectly-planned, it doesn't overrun, and - oops, sorry, I just had to duck a flying pig there.

    But let's be reasonably kind and assume £15 billion, or £1.5 billion per year for 10 years. Assuming we can get 10-20 new coppers on the beat for £1 million (£50-100K per copper), that's up to 30,000 new police officers we could get instead. Which seems like a lot to me - there's only 30,000 police officers in the entire Metropolitan police force.

    The LSE have done a lot of good work on this area - and so of course, they have been attacked by the government for presuming to do some actual credible research.

    See here for more information:
    The Identity Project

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: A fine line between Man and Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    Brian says "The male homo sapiens is a uniquely sadistic beast with a great desire to inflict violence purely for the sake of it than any other animal, so why does the law not reflect that?"

    I think ALL men should be DNA tested from birth and any man entering the country should also be DNA tested.
    There are times when the venom level of your misandry really worries me babe. May I ask, when your read the tabloid press do you ever stop for a moment to consider the wider implications and the possibility that there may be a valid counter argument?

    When you post these sorts of threads you never seem to include any balance, or temper your argument with your thoughts. It's usually just "I read this in the Mail/Mirror/Sun, (delete as applicable) let's hang them all!" This really does you a great disservice, as you have real flashes of brilliance in some debates

    The world is after all neither black, nor white. Ohh I just read THIS on the BBC news website. I know this case as it is local and has a lot of local press coverage. This guy did NOTHING wrong. She forged his signature to obtain loans he knew nothing about, and when she was in too deep she tried to kill him to cash in his insurance. Hesuffered kidney failure and brain damage and is now blind. He is also partially deaf, has some paralysis of his facial muscles and needs 24-hour care.

    Please remember that these columnists are paid to churn out column inches. There is no need for their work to be that well researched, or to particularly stand the scrutiny of debate - it is after all just tomorrow's chip wrapper. There is a danger however that weaker minded people may not scrutinise the comments they read, seeing them as a STARTING point for debate, but rather view these columns as definitive reference material.

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