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Thread: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    How would you propose teaching beginners then? Osmosis?
    Dunno. I like the "warmup" thing they do at the start of Ceroc beginner classes, I think that has some potential for expansion - maybe by teaching separate leads and followers out for 5 minutes, showing basic movements and a couple of minutes of technique?

    Teaching moves isn't inherently wrong - but teaching moves by itself is not helpful - as it leads to the bloody-intermediate stage.

    Dance is like learning a language. And MJ moves are like a "Handy phrasebook".

    Sure, you can communicate to an extent with a phrasebook, but no matter how many phrases you learn, you'll never progress beyond a certain point if you don't know the words themselves, and how they can be put together.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Dunno. I like the "warmup" thing they do at the start of Ceroc beginner classes, I think that has some potential for expansion - maybe by teaching separate leads and followers out for 5 minutes, showing basic movements and a couple of minutes of technique?

    Teaching moves isn't inherently wrong - but teaching moves by itself is not helpful - as it leads to the bloody-intermediate stage.

    Dance is like learning a language. And MJ moves are like a "Handy phrasebook".

    Sure, you can communicate to an extent with a phrasebook, but no matter how many phrases you learn, you'll never progress beyond a certain point if you don't know the words themselves, and how they can be put together.
    So what you're saying then is that those who learn to "dance", rather than just perform "moves", are currently learning by chance – by osmosis, if you like.

    Fair point, but I think that's a problem with the intermediate class system, not the beginners' classes.

    When you start to learn a language, you start with simple words and phrases. You pretend to be able to speak the language by doing semi-rehearsed conversations with other learners in the class. It typically takes a while doing that before you are ready to apply the grammar on your own and create your own sentences.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So do beginner moves actually help beginners?
    yes, it brings them back to their comfort zone. Relaxes them ready for the next few unknown moves.
    I float in and out of the taught moves on the night, with the beginners, feeling their response and gradually extending them.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    I think the primary focus on moves rather than technique is the basic problem.

    I don't actually believe moveless dancing exists (to beat the language metaphor to an untimely death), that would be like trying to speak without words. But the best dancers, like the best writers, are able to assemble the moves more skillfully and more mindfully. The way they do this is, again, like a gifted writer, through an appreciation of the technical aspects of writing and language. Some people have an almost innate appreciation (and probably can't talk to you in technical, grammatical terms); others learn it as more of a science (in both language and dance, I am the latter...). On top of that basic tecnique, they add their own stylistic flair and individuality. But the base is technical.

    So the primary purpose of learning moves is not so that you know moves. It's so that you learn the underlying technique.

    An example might help. I use the return because it is a very simple move and contains some of the most basic technique needed for MJ. Knowing that a return is a simple underarm turn is knowing the move. Knowing that its led by a raised arm which you turn under is very, very simple. But then you need to learn a travelling return. And, perhaps, an overturned return, a double-speed return, a slow, ronde return etc, a return into a ballroom hold, etc. All different moves.

    On the other hand, if you know the technique of turning on the spot when led, the double-speed, overturned, normal return, and return into ballroom all become a simple case of following with the right technique (and, in reality, a bunch of other turns are built on this as well). If you can do a travelling turn, then a good lead will take you into a travelling return - or any of several hundred other travelling moves. Ditto the slow return with ronde - you need to know how to do a return and how to do a ronde.

    I can honestly say that in the past two or three years, I've seen no more than a small handful of "new" moves in ceroc - and these were all performed by showcase competitors. Everything else I've seen is a variation or recombination of moves I already know: phrases or sentances that use familiar words and follow the basic grammar of ceroc. Some of the best dancers I know use 2-3 basic moves, with a host of variations.

    So, where does leave classes - especially beginners?

    Well, they have to teach moves. One cannot learn grammar and structure without knowing at least a few words. But two things are important (and, in my experience, could be seriously improved).

    Firstly, technique has to be taught right from the start of beginners. Teaching a return isn't enough - one has to know which foot to stand on, which foot to turn on, how to end the turn (for both lead and follow), what hand-grip to use, how to lead and control a turn and so on. All of this should be included in the beginners classes. And, yes, that does include footwork (in ballroom, you tend to learn footwork first, then build on the body and arm elements, then hone the technique).

    Secondly, when teaching, the teacher's (and demo's) technique has to be as close to perfect as being human allows. For the basic beginners moves, this sounds simple, but is often not achieved. I'd extend that to the taxi dancers as well: whether they like it or not, they're teaching technique. And will be watched. I said it sounds simple, but it isn't. I know, for myself, I get lazy when doing a basic move or, almost subconsciously, throw in some variation. The discipline to dance technically well when teaching is very hard.

    Doing all this can lead people to be horribly self-conscious about their dancing. It takes real skill in teaching to constantly hammer home these points without making ceroc seem too much like hard work. But teaching with this approach very quickly moves people away from thinking ceroc is knowing moves to understanding moves as a way of expressing ceroc.
    Last edited by geoff332; 27th-February-2008 at 12:29 AM.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Whilst I'm 100% behind the sentiment of helping beginners, I'm not sure if focussing on "beginner moves" is helpful. It just kind of reinforces the message that The Moves Are All-Important. When they're obviously not.

    I never dance beginner moves now, even with beginners (I can't even remember what they are, so I couldn't if I wanted to ).

    So do beginner moves actually help beginners?
    the reason for my comment is simply that the beginers can get show offs who think they can dance come up to them and start to throw them into dips etc purely so the experienced show off can "look good" and it frightens of the complete beginer ie the first or second lesson dancer

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Ah - here we disagree. I don't think beginner followers need to know any moves.
    problem is we arent all as good at dancing as you david and the majority of people at ceroc classes will dance moves if a beginner follower didnt know say a first move then the dance wouldnt have a chance (i am not talking about people who compete just social dancers who do it purley for fun which is again the majority of the people i know)

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I think the primary focus on moves rather than technique is the basic problem.
    I don't think it's a problem. How do you teach technique without moves to apply them to? How do you make something fun and enjoyable if you have to repeat each nuance of technique again, and again, and again, and again, and again untill you have it "right".... And then do it again, and again, and again, and again, untill you can't do it any other way.
    What exactly would you be doing again and...? perhaps an individual component to a move?

    I don't actually believe moveless dancing exists (to beat the language metaphor to an untimely death), that would be like trying to speak without words.
    Yes; a picture can speak a thousand words. I agree; moveless dancing is communicating without the "words" of moves; just the expressions and moods that the words invoke. An actor can say a lot without dialogue.

    So the primary purpose of learning moves is not so that you know moves. It's so that you learn the underlying technique.
    Where do you draw the line between "technique" and "movement"? You could say that the primary purpose of learning a routine is not so that you know the routine, but so that you learn the underlying moves. The primary purpose of learning the dance is not so you can dance, but so you can learn the underlying routines. Why is this such a silly statement if the others are not?

    An example might help. I use the return ~ All different moves.
    All different movements, but I would hesitate to say that they are all different moves unless you are sure that they contain more than one movement* (* if you break down a move, you get sections of "movements" - normally these are timed to 'counts')

    On the other hand, if you know the technique of turning on the spot when led, ~all become a simple case of following with the right technique
    do you mean the same technique? Why should following a led ronde be any different from following a led turn?

    I can honestly say that in the past two or three years, I've seen no more than a small handful of "new" moves in ceroc
    I thinik I've seen a couple of new leadable moves in a few years (I've seen more new hi-jacks though )

    Firstly, technique has to be taught right from the start of beginners. Teaching a return isn't enough - one has to know which foot to stand on, which foot to turn on, how to end the turn (for both lead and follow), what hand-grip to use, how to lead and control a turn and so on. All of this should be included in the beginners classes. And, yes, that does include footwork (in ballroom, you tend to learn footwork first, then build on the body and arm elements, then hone the technique).
    This is not ballroom ( ). It does not make a squid's difference which foot you stand on, which you turn on, what hand grip you use, how to control it,... as long as you get your body round to face your partner again with the timeing that was led without injuring them or yourself, (and you are ready to go again) then it's a turn and it works.

    Advice and techniques to help you acoumplish this are available from the stage if you listen and watch, but just because you don't conform exactly to the techniques of a 'perfect' turn, does not automatically imply that you cannot follow a turn or are bad at it.

    {BTW, as far back as I can remember (... erm last week?...) these things have been taught to beginners - but beginners are learning a physical activity: it's what you do that they focus on rather than how to do it.}

    Secondly, when teaching, the teacher's (and demo's) technique has to be as close to perfect as being human allows.
    I dissagree with this as well: it should be as human as possable - the teacher is not there as a pinicle of perfection, but as someone who can teach you and knows what/where things will go wrong - showing that they do go wrong sometimes and that it's not the end of the world is part of this and allows the teacher to connect more with the pupils.

    Doing all this can lead people to be horribly self-conscious about their dancing. It takes real skill in teaching to constantly hammer home these points without making ceroc seem too much like hard work. But teaching with this approach very quickly moves people away from thinking ceroc is knowing moves to understanding moves as a way of expressing ceroc.
    expressing "ceroc"? and it's not the move you choose to express the dance, it's the attitude behind it; "moves" are suplimental.
    Points need not be "hammered home" - there are new people in every night; the same thing has to be repeated often just so they get it fresh for the first time.

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    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    End of the day all this is completely imaterial to a class teaching modern jive under the ceroc banner
    The teacher has a set list of moves to teach the class.
    I agree that they need to teach how to lead and how to follow BUT modern jive taught in ceroc is moves particularly in the beginners section theres a list of 19 moves this helps the beginner to get over their self confidence problems (which all first and second week beginners have) and gets them moving in time to music with everyone doing the same thing
    If you then get an "expert" dancer take a brand new beginner on the floor then they only confuse the beginner when they show off which then frustrates the beginner so much that they do not return because they think they have no chance of learning the stuff the "expert" has just done with them

    First time non dancers need structure and simple stuff danced to music

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    If you then get an "expert" dancer take a brand new beginner on the floor then they only confuse the beginner when they show off
    I appreciate the quotes, but that's not an expert dancer, that's a bloody-intermediate.

    Shooting's too good for bloody-intermediates.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    First time non dancers need structure and simple stuff danced to music
    Yes, it's a reasonable point. That level of structure does provide confidence.

    But Ceroc have already started, err, moving away from moves - changing the beginner routines from 4 to 3 moves - which presumably is to allow a bit of technique to be taught. It'd be a shame if they didn't take that opportunity to provide some standardised technique training, as well as standardised moves.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    I don't think it's a problem. How do you teach technique without moves to apply them to?
    Easy. Teach seaparately then apply in couples.

    For example:

    • Teach stepping forward and back - then use that with the in-and-out.
    • Teach doing a step-turn, clockwise and anti-clockwise - then that's a return and turn.
    • Teach doing a spin - then that's, well, a spin.


    If a teacher spent a couple of minutes at the start of a class, to teach each of these fundamental movements correctly - say, one of them a week - then doing moves will be a doddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    How do you make something fun and enjoyable if you have to repeat each nuance of technique again, and again, and again, and again, and again untill you have it "right".... And then do it again, and again, and again, and again, untill you can't do it any other way.
    I'm not talking about thousands of repetitions, just a few minutes going over one basic technique point each week. That said, it's not a bad idea to say "And you can practice this at home" as well. Which will be much easier if you're teaching separately, as they can practice solo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    Where do you draw the line between "technique" and "movement"?
    Well, for example, there's vast amounts of technique involved in standing still correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    This is not ballroom ( ).
    Why pick on ballroom? WCS has technique, as does AT and salsa. In fact, every dance has technique.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Easy. Teach seaparately then apply in couples.

    For example:

    • Teach stepping forward and back - then use that with the in-and-out.
    • Teach doing a step-turn, clockwise and anti-clockwise - then that's a return and turn.
    • Teach doing a spin - then that's, well, a spin.


    If a teacher spent a couple of minutes at the start of a class, to teach each of these fundamental movements correctly - say, one of them a week - then doing moves will be a doddle.


    I'm not talking about thousands of repetitions, just a few minutes going over one basic technique point each week. That said, it's not a bad idea to say "And you can practice this at home" as well. Which will be much easier if you're teaching separately, as they can practice solo.
    erm... have you been to/through many "Ceroc essentials" at the beginning of a beginner's class? that's exactly what they do! (almost verbatum)

    Why pick on ballroom? WCS has technique, as does AT and salsa. In fact, every dance has technique.
    you brought it up!

    "Technique" is how you do stuff: for people just being introduced to dance, "how" is not important - it's the doing of stuff and having fun. That's the whole ethos behind it. I think that the Ceroc lesson structure actually works rather well at both teaching the technical stuff and maintaining the "fun" aspect.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    "Technique" is how you do stuff: for people just being introduced to dance, "how" is not important - it's the doing of stuff and having fun. That's the whole ethos behind it. I think that the Ceroc lesson structure actually works rather well at both teaching the technical stuff and maintaining the "fun" aspect.
    I have to confess I'm a little confused as to how you can teach technical stuff without teach how to do it....

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    It does not make a squid's difference which foot you stand on, which you turn on, what hand grip you use, how to control it,... as long as you get your body round to face your partner again with the timeing that was led without injuring them or yourself, (and you are ready to go again) then it's a turn and it works.
    Sorry, but that is nothing more than total nonsense. To pick on the first one: when doing any sort of spot turn, as one does in the middle of a return, one should always turn on the inside foot. Like any rule, there are exceptions, but they are rare. Plenty of people can and do turn on the wrong foot. Ive done it myself, I've led plenty of people who try it, and watched even more. It simply looks and feels bad from every angle. When you turn on the wrong foot, the turn is more work; is far less controlled; makes you more likely to travel; is harder to vary - especially speed up; and harder for your partner to knwo what you are doing. Try a little drill: step back on your right foot; step forward on your right; turn to your right; step back on your right. Then try stepping back on your left, stepping forward on your left and spinning to your right. See which is easier. See in which you can end up with your body in exactly the same position at the end of the spin. You can discect every thing I talked about in the same way. This is simple physics; something that every dancer should know. That an experienced ceroc dancer publicly denies this is an indictment on the teaching of ceroc. I suspect you do actually spin on the correct foot most of the time, even if you aren't aware of it.

    The same is true for everything else I mentioned and pretty much everything one does in ceroc - just like every other dance in the universe. There is a lot of technique buried in every move. Technique does make the initial learning curve steeper. Which is why teaching it requires a real skill. But learning technique properly makes the learning plateau for any one much higher. And that improves the overall quality of ceroc dancing.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Sorry, but that is nothing more than total nonsense.
    To a beginner just through the door, how you accoumplish a turn means nothing: You could hop round, you could turn the opposite way from what was led, you could turn before it was led, you could turn on the heel, turn on the back foot, shuffle round in a few steps, let your arms move then torso turn before your hips and legs move... there are a million different ways that you could turn. How the beginner turned is a lot lower in the priorities than having fun and actually getting from A to B. {with the priviso that you didn't hurt anyone on the way round }

    That an experienced ceroc dancer publicly denies this is an indictment on the teaching of ceroc. I suspect you do actually spin on the correct foot most of the time, even if you aren't aware of it.
    I spin on the foot I put my center over. I spin in whatever direction I think flows with the momentum. But I've practiced spinning both ways on either foot - I'm currently practicing spinning on the heel. There is a lot of technique to spinning and I've been to a few workshops dedicated to it run by different teachers: I'm not denying that there is technique, just that it's not as important as dancing and enjoying yourself.

    As I've said before: the technique is taught, pointers are given from the stage, but if you can go from A to B to C and complete a move, then you're dancing. And that's what Ceroc is good at - getting people dancing.



    Or to put it another way: don't worry if you get it "wrong"

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    I find that ,as a follow, when I'm only been led beginners moves, I spend all my time with the weight on my right leg.

    I just prayed for a ceroc spin so I could shift my weight to the left leg for a little rest.

    It may be that you will only notice this if you have a weak right leg.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Firstly, technique has to be taught right from the start of beginners. Teaching a return isn't enough - one has to know which foot to stand on, which foot to turn on, how to end the turn (for both lead and follow), what hand-grip to use, how to lead and control a turn and so on. All of this should be included in the beginners classes. And, yes, that does include footwork
    This is what they do locally to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    It does not make a squid's difference which foot you stand on, which you turn on, what hand grip you use, how to control it,... as long as you get your body round to face your partner again with the timeing that was led without injuring them or yourself, (and you are ready to go again) then it's a turn and it works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
    To a beginner just through the door, how you accoumplish a turn means nothing: You could hop round, you could turn the opposite way from what was led, you could turn before it was led, you could turn on the heel, turn on the back foot, shuffle round in a few steps, let your arms move then torso turn before your hips and legs move...
    This is just scary

    I also find that it does not ring true with my personal experience, where a lot of beginners do care about what foot they are on, and if they are doing the move correctly.

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