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Thread: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    i also tell anyone i help whenever someone comes and asks them to dance to say to them "beginners moves only please" most people i know will be only too happy to help a beginner
    Whilst I'm 100% behind the sentiment of helping beginners, I'm not sure if focussing on "beginner moves" is helpful. It just kind of reinforces the message that The Moves Are All-Important. When they're obviously not.

    I never dance beginner moves now, even with beginners (I can't even remember what they are, so I couldn't if I wanted to ).

    What I tend to do now with beginners is focus on leading technique instead of style - so making my leads as clear as possible, no matter what. OK, there are some moves I won't do with beginners - but that's mainly because my lead isn't as clear as it could be with those moves.

    So do beginner moves actually help beginners?

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So do beginner moves actually help beginners?
    I took my husband dancing on friday, he's only been a few times in all the years i've been going. He asked me to teach him some more moves and I told him not to think of learning moves but to lead the lady into whatever position he could as long as he kept it continous and smooth. By teaching moves you teach to break up the movement and that's why most beginers find it difficult to be smooth.
    (Runs for cover as all the Ceroc teachers start jumping on me )

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    I think certain beginners moves are important as they form the basics of most other moves that are learnt. First move is a very good example of this.

    I have scrapped alot of beginners moves out of my lessons as they are not helpful at all and replaced them with more technique based moves. I.e the arm jive has now gone and been replaced with an "in-out", Similar to the WCS sugerpush, which will teach compression/tension.

    Also the way Begginers moves are taught is not helpful at all. Beign taught 1&2&3&4& makes beginners only move on the numbers and not the &'s. They rush each segment to get to the next number which creates jerkiness and bouncing.

    Still working on how I will get around this with beginners but at the moment looking at replacing the "MJ" count of 1&2&3&4& with a simple 12345678.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Beginner moves are helpful to beginner leads and absolute beginner followers (it helps them get through classes and dances while they learn to follow.)

    I will not restrict myself to beginner moves though when dancing with a beginner follower – I will just try to keep my leads clear and simple
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    I think I never use 50% of the beginner moves in 90% of my dances. I also don't find I need people to tell me how experienced they are, since different people follow slightly differently without necessarily being inexperienced!

    Is the travelling return a beginners move - I can stick to just that if it helps

    Sean

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    Registered User DundeeDancer's Avatar
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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    I tend to use only beginner moves and intermediate moves where it's easy to give a very clear lead.

    If I stray away from those moves I tend to find the follower doesn't do what I expect.

    One example is the arm jive tea pot, arm jive into swizzle position, then take my left hand over my head and reach across with my right hand behind her back and grab her left hand.

    I've found I need to be lightening quick after the swizzle to shoot across and grab the other hand before the follower has any thinking time, otherwise they just spin out.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    I tend to use only beginner moves and intermediate moves where it's easy to give a very clear lead.

    If I stray away from those moves I tend to find the follower doesn't do what I expect.

    One example is the arm jive tea pot, arm jive into swizzle position, then take my left hand over my head and reach across with my right hand behind her back and grab her left hand.

    I've found I need to be lightening quick after the swizzle to shoot across and grab the other hand before the follower has any thinking time, otherwise they just spin out.
    I hold onto both hands throughout?

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Still working on how I will get around this with beginners but at the moment looking at replacing the "MJ" count of 1&2&3&4& with a simple 12345678.
    But then you'll run the risk of an unknowingly beginner trying to do it at double speed.

    I had that once. She just flew through the first move before I had to step back.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    One example is the arm jive tea pot, arm jive into swizzle position, then take my left hand over my head and reach across with my right hand behind her back and grab her left hand.

    I've found I need to be lightening quick after the swizzle to shoot across and grab the other hand before the follower has any thinking time, otherwise they just spin out.
    Is it me or do you not have to let go of either hand in this move?

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Is it me or do you not have to let go of either hand in this move?
    Yeah, the segment from the swizzle extension to the move into the teapot position you must let go with your right hand, that's unless your right arm is a sword and you slice through the woman's torso but they don't tend to like that for some strange reason

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Yeah, the segment from the swizzle extension to the move into the teapot position you must let go with your right hand, that's unless your right arm is a sword and you slice through the woman's torso but they don't tend to like that for some strange reason
    Your right hand should already be behind her back. A one handed move into a teapot might be a little harder to lead but its much easier if the lady does a turn, like towards the end of a first move. You can leave your right hand on her left hip during the turn, so that it's already in position when you walk under.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Yeah, the segment from the swizzle extension to the move into the teapot position you must let go with your right hand, that's unless your right arm is a sword and you slice through the woman's torso but they don't tend to like that for some strange reason
    Are you sure?

    Lady's right arm is extended.

    Lady's left arm is in a nelson behind her back.

    You step under her extended right arm.

    You don't ever let go.

    I know this as 95% of the time this is the move (although slightly varied) that I always start off which as I can tell who I'm dancing with then. Unless I know them of course!

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Your right hand should already be behind her back. A one handed move into a teapot might be a little harder to lead but its much easier if the lady does a turn, like towards the end of a first move. You can leave your right hand on her left hip during the turn, so that it's already in position when you walk under.
    Oh yeah, now I think about it maybe you don't need to let go. I'll need to try hanging on next time on Thursday hehe.

    I still find the woman tries to spin out when starting the teapot walk around, maybe I'm just not hanging on tight enough

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    I know this as 95% of the time this is the move (although slightly varied) that I always start off which as I can tell who I'm dancing with then. Unless I know them of course!
    What you mean, don't you just look at there face to tell who your dancing with

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    Oh yeah, now I think about it maybe you don't need to let go. I'll need to try hanging on next time on Thursday hehe.

    I still find the woman tries to spin out when starting the teapot walk around, maybe I'm just not hanging on tight enough
    No need to hang on. Just be clear as to what you want to do. If she does spin out then carry on without letting her know that it wasn't what you had intended. Then she'll be none the wiser.

    Quote Originally Posted by DundeeDancer View Post
    What you mean, don't you just look at there face to tell who your dancing with
    I mean their following skill. Something that can be judged in the first few seconds.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    I mean their following skill. Something that can be judged in the first few seconds.
    he he thought that's what you were getting at, just teasing,

    So if they don't follow your teapot lead, was that your mistake or theirs? Isn't it a fairly basic intermediate move, do you then think "I'll need to stick to the real basics here"?

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    No. I think some intermediate moves can be difficult to lead/follow if you don't already know them. The teapot one was taught at a class I didn't attend and then a friend tried it on me - I started to spin out and he stopped to try and figure out why. We decided it was because he pulled down on my arm behind my back as he started to walk around me, so I thought he wanted me to unwind.

    Anyway, I think beginner moves are necessary for the majority of people who walk through the door into ceroc. A lot of them have two left feet, little co-ordination, and even less musicality. The beginner moves give them a sense of accomplishment (they are, after all, dancing) while at the same time providing a platform for them to move on to more complicated things like stylising.

    It would be a bit much to ask for a lot of the leads to lead something they're not used to if they don't have a few 'set' moves to fall back on when it doesn't work. And it would be equally unfair on the followers for similar reasons. New people need some kind of framework to build on. They can't just waltz in and be expected to make it up on the spot. That, strangely enough, takes practice.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genie View Post
    Anyway, I think beginner moves are necessary for the majority of people who walk through the door into ceroc.
    Yes. I think "beginner moves" are basically a marketing ploy - they're a way of ensuring retention during the painful initial learning curve. But I don't think they help in terms of learning to dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genie View Post
    It would be a bit much to ask for a lot of the leads to lead something they're not used to if they don't have a few 'set' moves to fall back on when it doesn't work.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genie View Post
    And it would be equally unfair on the followers for similar reasons.
    Ah - here we disagree. I don't think beginner followers need to know any moves.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Ah - here we disagree. I don't think beginner followers need to know any moves.


    No. But it helps if the 'lead' does. If the lead doesn't, then how can the followers learn? And I don't know many beginners (male or female) who are comfortable dancing with the more advanced dancers right off. They prefer to dance with each other during the initial learning curve. Which means the lead kinda needs to have a vague idea what he's doing.

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    Re: Beginner moves - are they helpful?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yes. I think "beginner moves" are basically a marketing ploy - they're a way of ensuring retention during the painful initial learning curve. But I don't think they help in terms of learning to dance.
    How would you propose teaching beginners then? Osmosis?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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