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Thread: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    Joking aside, you might be able to do something constructive with this. Have a workshop, everyone dances with someone, and then has to write a critique of their partner (probably fill in a form to rate various criteria from 1 to 10) Then you swap partners and repeat the process until every leader has danced with every follower. At the end of the workshop, you give each person their critiques, so they know what to work on. You also know what sort of workshops to run in future, and who should (or shouldn't) attend.
    'speed criticising' hey ? kinda cool

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    As per Haraang ... the punters will be there for the other workshops (its part of an all day event), at an appointed time those who would like to take part in the "God Among Mortals" workshop line up and dance.
    Well, hold on - your OP gave the indication that you were asking a set of general questions about the viability of such a workshop. Now you're saying that it's part of a weekender event?

    They're different prospects.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Well, hold on - your OP gave the indication that you were asking a set of general questions about the viability of such a workshop. Now you're saying that it's part of a weekender event?

    They're different prospects.
    Urrr NO ... I said it was part of an all day event. I can't see a model that would allow it to exist on its own ... too much hassle

    Why does the fact that such a workshop is part of a range of workshops change the ethos? How long the workshop should be (1 ,2, 4 hours?) is open to debate, as is the content.

    The key questions remain ... would there be enough people in the region to run it and if so, what should it cover. The selection process is just an admin detail ... though DavidB's suggestion both appeal to the evil side of me (how much would you pay to see it on YouTube ) and also I could see a lot of value in it. We did something similar-ish on a Blitz teacher training day ... MANY years ago.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Why does the fact that such a workshop is part of a range of workshops change the ethos? How long the workshop should be (1 ,2, 4 hours?) is open to debate, as is the content.
    I really do think you're underestimating how much ill-feeling this is likely to cause. I also think a "good enough / not good enough" rating is far too broad a brush.

    Can you clarify why you feel it's such a problem to have people in the workshop who can't cope with it? I can see it's a pain if you have general rotation, but if you say the classes aren't general rotation but you can rotate with friends if you want, I think that gets round this to a large extent.

    If the issue is you want to have a "small exclusive" workshop, I think you're better off organising it as a "group private". Then most people won't even know about it to get jealous, and everyone understands privates are going to be "exclusive" anyhow.

    As a similar point, you might find it works just charging for admission to the workshop. If you charge £20 per head to get in, at least you're going to avoid a lot of the people who just wander in out of 'curiosity'.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I really do think you're underestimating how much ill-feeling this is likely to cause. I also think a "good enough / not good enough" rating is far too broad a brush.

    Can you clarify why you feel it's such a problem to have people in the workshop who can't cope with it? I can see it's a pain if you have general rotation, but if you say the classes aren't general rotation but you can rotate with friends if you want, I think that gets round this to a large extent.

    If the issue is you want to have a "small exclusive" workshop, I think you're better off organising it as a "group private". Then most people won't even know about it to get jealous, and everyone understands privates are going to be "exclusive" anyhow.

    As a similar point, you might find it works just charging for admission to the workshop. If you charge £20 per head to get in, at least you're going to avoid a lot of the people who just wander in out of 'curiosity'.

    Also such a broad rating excludes any dancer who may find one particular part of the class difficult but actually gets a great deal from the rest. The ability to make progress is also dependent upon the determination and learning style of the dancer not necessarily the label of ability, and of equal importance the teaching style of the teacher.
    As has been argued elsewhere, the label of teacher does not necessarily equate with elite dancer. Just to play devil's advocate, this is a view put forward by several teachers in the C2D thread.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    If the issue is you want to have a "small exclusive" workshop, I think you're better off organising it as a "group private".
    Yeah - I think "group private" is pretty much what Gus is describing anyway...

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I think you're better off organising it as a "group private".
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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I really do think you're underestimating how much ill-feeling this is likely to cause. I also think a "good enough / not good enough" rating is far too broad a brush.

    Can you clarify why you feel it's such a problem to have people in the workshop who can't cope with it? I can see it's a pain if you have general rotation, but if you say the classes aren't general rotation but you can rotate with friends if you want, I think that gets round this to a large extent.
    I've been to a Lindy few events now where the top class was 'audition-only' and I think it's a very good idea. While I can imagine some people taking umbrage at being 'rejected', I've not seen this happen, and I've not seen any ill-feeling result from doing this. As for allowing anyone in and not having general rotation... well - perhaps the organisers of these events consider general rotation to be extremely important, regardless of level. I certainly do.

    Even if you don't have a rotation, it's hard for a conscientious teacher to ignore a bunch of couples who are finding the class difficult or impossible - and it will disrupt the class. Likewise if one of the 'weak links' is asking questions about basics which are a prerequisite for the class - it's a waste of everyone's time (I've once come across a fed-up teacher respond to one such by saying: "If you have to ask that, you shouldn't be in this class" - NOT a productive thing to say, but understandable in many ways)

    Is it a nightmare to organise? Hard to say, but I've been to events where the auditions were held at the event, and I've been to ones where the bulk of the decisions were taken by the organisers in advance, through knowing their customers. Both seemed to work smoothly - although I don't know what might have gone on behind the scenes.

    I have to say though that it would not be necessary to take a step like this if there weren't a huge number of people who seem unable or unwilling to put themselves at the correct level - at the last Lindy weekender I went to, there were several leaders in the advanced class - above which there was the 'audition-only advanced plus - who couldn't lead a basic swingout (a bit like someone putting themselves into an advanced MJ workshop when they can't lead a First Move)

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    I'd still like to see the advanced classes at weekenders run at the beginning of the weekender, to stop those people who think that, by doing the beginners workshop the day before, automatically makes them ready for the advanced the following day!
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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    You could do a 'Weakest Link' assessment - run one workshop, and everyone who takes part gets to vote one person out. The least popular leader & follower leave, and then get to bitch about everyone else on the workshop video.

    Joking aside, you might be able to do something constructive with this. Have a workshop, everyone dances with someone, and then has to write a critique of their partner (probably fill in a form to rate various criteria from 1 to 10) Then you swap partners and repeat the process until every leader has danced with every follower. At the end of the workshop, you give each person their critiques, so they know what to work on. You also know what sort of workshops to run in future, and who should (or shouldn't) attend.

    You make sure everyone knows it is all about constructive criticism. However you also keep everything anonymous.
    I have got to say that this idea is excellent. One of the hardest things to do when booking a private is to find out what you want to work on, yet it is vital if you want to get the most from it. Being self-aware would be great and watching yourself on video helps but it does little to tell you what is wrong with your lead or follow. Getting feedback from a dance partner is pretty hard; firstly to take as we all have our pride but also to get, as most people aren't confident/forward enough to give their honest opinion even when asked. If however you had a whole stack of anonymous critiques it might still wound your pride but at least you might be able to see a trend and then work on those things either on your own or in a private.

    Sombody should definitely think about doing a workshop like this.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Even if you don't have a rotation, it's hard for a conscientious teacher to ignore a bunch of couples who are finding the class difficult or impossible - and it will disrupt the class. Likewise if one of the 'weak links' is asking questions about basics which are a prerequisite for the class - it's a waste of everyone's time (I've once come across a fed-up teacher respond to one such by saying: "If you have to ask that, you shouldn't be in this class" - NOT a productive thing to say, but understandable in many ways)

    Is it a nightmare to organise? Hard to say, but I've been to events where the auditions were held at the event, and I've been to ones where the bulk of the decisions were taken by the organisers in advance, through knowing their customers. Both seemed to work smoothly - although I don't know what might have gone on behind the scenes.
    I agree - having a bunch of intermediate/beginner people in the class (even if they're not part of the rotation system) is likely to disrupt the class. They could of course be gagged and caged... No, seriously, I'd love to go to an advanced workshop, aimed at advanced dancers only, with no intermediate or beginner dancers who hold everyone else back. I'd love to have my dancing properly criticized (it'll hurt, but how else will I improve??), and my dance abilities stretched and challenged.

    DavidB's idea of everyone filling in a critique assessment form for each other sounds good!

    Saying that, I might not be 'elite' enough to be allowed in such a workshop anyway....

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Saying that, I might not be 'elite' enough to be allowed in such a workshop anyway....
    I don't come even close, honey, so you'll just have to stick with the rest of us mortals.

    If you're really 'that' elite that you need to organise something special enough to require an 'entrance exam,' then you'd probably better off doing private lessons or something very one-to-one. If you're not, then it depends on the workshop. After all, if you're doing an advanced 'blues' or 'style' workshop, then someone might attend who would not attend an advanced dips and drops one, because they might be pretty good at blues, but terrible at dips n drops, etc.

    So Gus, I'm not well today so bear with me while I try to understand what you're after. You want a workshop at a weekender that only bloody-brilliant dancers can go to, where they have to prove it before they go in? And you want to know what sort of thing they would be taught? I'd imagine that if you got several 'elite' dancing couples in a room, they'd all tell you different things. Each of the better dancers I've watched has had their own style and 'thing'. So... Is lumping 'elite' dancers into one workshop as feasible as lumping a bunch lower intermediates (like me) in a standard workshop? Like dance cat said, it's much harder to define the skills, talents and needs for improvements for those 'top twenty'. Aren't they unlikely to be the same needs and skills for each of them.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    At the moment I'm playting with the idea of using a Contemporary Dance type approach (as I understand it), i.e. use the workshop for mutual coaching with a facilitator to lead the group with themes, e.g. specific teachniques, movesments, shapes and see how the group develops those themes ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Genie View Post
    So Gus, I'm not well today so bear with me while I try to understand what you're after. You want a workshop at a weekender that only bloody-brilliant dancers can go to, where they have to prove it before they go in? And you want to know what sort of thing they would be taught? I'd imagine that if you got several 'elite' dancing couples in a room, they'd all tell you different things. Each of the better dancers I've watched has had their own style and 'thing'. So... Is lumping 'elite' dancers into one workshop as feasible as lumping a bunch lower intermediates (like me) in a standard workshop? Like dance cat said, it's much harder to define the skills, talents and needs for improvements for those 'top twenty'. Aren't they unlikely to be the same needs and skills for each of them.
    Well, as Gus said above, the 'elite' might bounce ideas off each other, and learn from assessing each others dancing. And there's things that are better taught in groups than one-to-one classes, as you get the chance to dance with and be criticized by several other dancers, who might all have different points of view.

    I'm fed up with never finding any advanced classes that cater specifically for just advanced dancers. Most of the 'advanced' classes I've attended in the past few years have ended up being more 'intermediate' than anything else, and I've not learned anything.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Ok, so a personal critique of each dancer's style and ability. Gadget, didn't the tuesday lot discuss this idea before? Anyway... don't elite dancers do that anyway? Give each other advice and critiques, I mean.

    I have only ever attended two workshops, in which I was just filling in for missing ladies. They were both borderline intermediate. I don't feel comfortable attending anything else for exactly the above reason.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Genie View Post
    Ok, so a personal critique of each dancer's style and ability. Gadget, didn't the tuesday lot discuss this idea before? Anyway... don't elite dancers do that anyway? Give each other advice and critiques, I mean.
    Not unless you're in a workshop environment. If you get a group of advanced dancers together for practice, yeah, of course there's going to be feedback from the other dancers. If you only ever see them on the social dance floor (which is mostly the case), that's not the time or place for in-depth critique of each others dance abilities.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I really do think you're underestimating how much ill-feeling this is likely to cause.
    Dave, you've known me long enough .... how am I going to be MORE unpopular than I am now .... short of expounding the neccesity to step back on the right foot at every opportunity?

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    If you get a group of advanced dancers together for practice, yeah, of course there's going to be feedback from the other dancers.
    ... and when did you last have the chance to be part of a same-level peer group of dancers. Thinking across the N West, and I admit I'm a bit out-of-date, I can think of about 20 - 25 dancers who would benefit from the 'group private' or 'mutual feedback' type workshop. Not totally surprising, a fair few of these dancers don't have that much confidence in their own dancing and so feedback would have to be careefully managed. It also bears saying, there are a number of teachers who wouldn't rate joining this group, testament to the "not all teachers are great dancers" school of thought.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    ... and when did you last have the chance to be part of a same-level peer group of dancers.
    Exactly. And that's why this sort of idea appeals to me.

    Now I just need to become an 'elite' dancer.... Or wait for someone to arrange workshops for us mere mortal 'slightly advanced' dancers.

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey View Post
    Exactly. And that's why this sort of idea appeals to me.

    Now I just need to become an 'elite' dancer.... Or wait for someone to arrange workshops for us mere mortal 'slightly advanced' dancers.
    Define 'slightly advanced'? I don't know what defines advanced from intermediate anyway, aside from a sudden ability to look down on everyone else

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    Re: ‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

    Quote Originally Posted by Genie View Post
    I don't know what defines advanced from intermediate anyway, aside from a sudden ability to look down on everyone else
    Sudden? Naah - it takes many of us years** to learn to do that.

    **(and a nice tall ladder)

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