‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

[Lee Bartholomew]

Or you could have pre workshop workshops.
-
For example:

You could only do level 3 workshops if you have completed two level 2 workshops

[David Bailey]

What's wrong with everyone dancing with the workshop teacher and getting a simple yes/no answer?

Nothing - and if you'll look at the various "assessment system" threads I've started, I've no problems with such a system. In fact, I'm an advocate of it, I think it's a good idea.

But there are practical problems - i.e. most people booking for a workshop in the UK won't be around to dance with that teacher, they're likely to be at different classes.

So how do you get the potential students and the assessor (the workshop teacher) in the same place? You can't, it's a logistical nightmare. Especially for specialist workshops, where you may only have 1 or 2 people per venue who are interested.

So to make it work across multiple venues and franchises, you'd need an assessment system, standardised, across the board, so you need to train all teachers in assessment criteria, and so on.

It sort-of works with Jango, because it's done on such a small-scale, and because Jango attendees are pretty much self-selecting anyway. Implementing it on a larger scale would take a lot of work, and probably involve a culture change in Ceroc in the UK.

From a commercial cost / benefit point-of-view, it's not obvious what the immediate gains would be.

[timbp]

Nothing - and if you'll look at the various "assessment system" threads I've started, I've no problems with such a system. In fact, I'm an advocate of it, I think it's a good idea.

But there are practical problems - i.e. most people booking for a workshop in the UK won't be around to dance with that teacher, they're likely to be at different classes.

Fair enough. I was thinking more of a weekender situation, where everyone is together at the same venue, and you just find time to audition with the teacher before the class.
(And I'm actually thinking of the Australian situation where a weekender is 250-350 participants in total.)

[David Bailey]

Fair enough. I was thinking more of a weekender situation, where everyone is together at the same venue, and you just find time to audition with the teacher before the class.
(And I'm actually thinking of the Australian situation where a weekender is 250-350 participants in total.)

Yes - that sort of thing might work, for example for the Ceroc masterclasses they're starting at their weekender. Small numbers of attendees, all in the same place - it's doable. It's still a bit of a logistical noverhead, but not a nightmare.

Looking at the Storm event schedule, I can't see much in the way of pre-requisites stated - Lucky and Ruby's one says "Intermediate & Advanced Blues Dancers", but that's about it.

[Gus]

From a commercial cost / benefit point-of-view, it's not obvious what the immediate gains would be.

Lets put it this way, we have about 20+ or so teacher/demos in the NM West. There are probably about the same number fo equally talented () dancers. Thius group is ahead of any of the workshops commonly on offer. Its not cost-effective for them to travel down to London to search out the 'Best of the Best' instructors to get private lessons. The idea is to "bring the Mountain to Mohammed" and have an 'Elite' workshop in our neck of the woods. Is that so wrong?

[David Bailey]

The idea is to "bring the Mountain to Mohammed" and have an 'Elite' workshop in our neck of the woods. Is that so wrong?

Except that you've not defined what it'll be teaching (you can't just say "Elite" - it needs to be specialised and targetted.)

Or, for that matter, whether there's any demand for such a workshop.

Although for the first two sentences

[Gus]

Except that you've not defined what it'll be teaching (you can't just say "Elite" - it needs to be specialised and targetted.) :

Never said I had defined. I would submit, that when you get to 'Elite' level ... what you need to learn is harder to define. At the moment I'm playting with the idea of using a Contemporary Dance type approach (as I understand it), i.e. use the workshop for mutual coaching with a facilitator to lead the group with themes, e.g. specific teachniques, movesments, shapes and see how the group develops those themes ...

[Freudian Hips]

Never said I had defined. I would submit, that when you get to 'Elite' level ... what you need to learn is harder to define. At the moment I'm playting with the idea of using a Contemporary Dance type approach (as I understand it), i.e. use the workshop for mutual coaching with a facilitator to lead the group with themes, e.g. specific teachniques, movesments, shapes and see how the group develops those themes ...

Now, this interests me ......

[dance cat]

Lets put it this way, we have about 20+ or so teacher/demos in the NM West. There are probably about the same number fo equally talented () dancers. Thius group is ahead of any of the workshops commonly on offer. Its not cost-effective for them to travel down to London to search out the 'Best of the Best' instructors to get private lessons. The idea is to "bring the Mountain to Mohammed" and have an 'Elite' workshop in our neck of the woods. Is that so wrong?

What about us lowly individuals in the North west who don't come into your 20+ teacher/ demos or equally talented dancers? Should we just make do with what's on offer? What about dancers who are interested in the technical side of dance, in fact crying out for the technical side of dance from really experienced and recognised teachers? Do dancers like me just have to put up with staying at our lowly level? It's a novel thought but perhaps letting dancers with a real interest in developing the technical side of their dance join in smaller, more focused workshops like this with the Best of the Best, we might just learn something from it as well as the more elite members of the North West dancing community.

[NZ Monkey]

What about us lowly individuals in the North west who don't come into your 20+ teacher/ demos or equally talented dancers? Should we just make do with what's on offer? What about dancers who are interested in the technical side of dance, in fact crying out for the technical side of dance from really experienced and recognised teachers? Do dancers like me just have to put up with staying at our lowly level? It's a novel thought but perhaps letting dancers with a real interest in developing the technical side of their dance join in smaller, more focused workshops like this with the Best of the Best, we might just learn something from it as well as the more elite members of the North West dancing community.

I think the point is that Gus is trying to facilitate a workshop aimed at stretching the people already at the top a little further than would get otherwise. If that isn't you (yet )then perhaps it's better trying to get your local organizers to put on another workshop aimed at stretching your level.

It's a hard pill to swallow (and a hard way to say it), but if a workshop is aimed at a level higher than you can perform at currently it may not be a good idea to attend it yet. At the very least, it may not be a good idea to join in the rotation. I can sympathize with the desire to learn but you have to be able to walk before you can run, and run before you can sprint.

If it helps at all, I learnt a considerable amount in WCS just by showing up to the class early where I was lucky enough to find a couple of lovely forumites having private lessons who didn't mind me watching from the sidelines. Perhaps you could negotiate to simply watch the workshops?

[geoff332]

Are we ready for workshops where you have to prove how good you are before you can take part? There have been many complaints about top class workshops ruined because its above the level of some of those attending.

I'm doing classes that require you to be assessed by one of the teachers before you can take part. And, yes, the standard of dancing in the classes is significantly higher. Consequently, I learn more, and am challenged more. And I usually enjoy the following freestyle more.

Is this a legitimate proposition or is it elitism?

Of course it's elitism. But elitism isn't the opposite of legitimacy. Personally I believe, in all fields, encouraging people to be better usually requires encouraging the best to strive to be elite. That is a good thing.

The are a few connumdrums...

Firstly, if you have to be THAT good to attend - perhaps you don't need to attend a workshop. One on one coaching and other forms of learning might be more appropriate. Related to this, you need to be clear on the skills/ability required to attend the workshop. One needs to know enough to do the workshop but not so much that the workshop can still teach them things they don't know.

Secondly, if the entry standard is too high, the workshops may not be economically viable.

Thirdly, the introduction of assessment requries the introduction of assessors. You also need to ensure the quality and ability of the assessors is appropriate for the standard you require in the workshop.

All of these problems can be surmounted - but none of them are trivial.

[dance cat]

The point I was making was what is there for dancers who aren't teachers/ demos but know they want more technical support and don't know what level they are?
What we find difficult with one teacher, no matter how good the teacher, may be something that we achieve easily with another teacher.
I actually have no problem with the principle of workshops for particular levels of dancers but I feel we may be in danger of isolating a significant proportion of the dancing community by restricting particular teaching approaches to levels of dancers. If we were in the enviable position of already catering adequately for dancers who have moved beyond the intermediate level but aren't elite, then I would be all in favour of small workshops for specific elite groups. I would though resist a situation where small focused workshops with excellent teachers became the preserve of a small minority of dancers and other dancers were restricted to larger workshops.

[David Bailey]

The point I was making was what is there for dancers who aren't teachers/ demos but know they want more technical support and don't know what level they are?

In MJ, damn all, unfortunately - and of course, there's no assessment system, so there's no way of knowing how good you are.

That all said, Ceroc workshops will help a lot of people to get to a certain level, especially if taught by the right people.

I actually have no problem with the principle of workshops for particular levels of dancers but I feel we may be in danger of isolating a significant proportion of the dancing community by restricting particular teaching approaches to levels of dancers.

Well, that's true - but that's a commercial problem, rather than anything else. Obviously an "elite" class won't be appropriate for the majority.

If we were in the enviable position of already catering adequately for dancers who have moved beyond the intermediate level but aren't elite,

Ummm. Not sure what you define here as "intermediate" or "elite" dancers. And yes, this gets back to the same problem of a lack of knowledge because of a lack of any assessment system within MJ.

But, yes, I agree, technique (for want of a better word) classes should be available at all levels. However, this thread is about elite classes. Feel free to start one about classes for other levels, it's a discussion forum after all

I would though resist a situation where small focused workshops with excellent teachers became the preserve of a small minority of dancers and other dancers were restricted to larger workshops.

I don't think that was the proposal, was it?

[dance cat]

Probably not David. It was my interpretation of a later post and that may not have been / probably wasn't the intention. I'm sorry.

[Martin]

Are we ready for workshops where you have to prove how good you are before you can take part? There have been many complaints about top class workshops ruined because its above the level of some of those attending.

So … how about a workshop that’s targeted at the Best … Teachers, Open level competitors etc. Like Harrang, if you want to be part of the course you need to prove you are up to it.

Is this a legitimate proposition or is it elitism? If it such workshops were to be made available, what topics would have to be taught to attract the 'Best' and who would this elite consider good enough to teach them?

It is real easy... put on a top class workshop... make it fixed couples.

Those who can will.... those who can't - well they were warned...

Everyone happy

[Gus]

The point I was making was what is there for dancers who aren't teachers/ demos but know they want more technical support and don't know what level they are?.

Fear not .... we're working on a proposition exactly for that target segment.

In MJ, damn all, unfortunately - and of course, there's no assessment system, so there's no way of knowing how good you are.

Ahem ... YES ... there is an assessment system .. its called an experienced teacher dnacing and observibng those who want to the workshop and saying yes or no .... just as they do with Haraang. Simple n'est pas?

I'm doing classes that require you to be assessed by one of the teachers before you can take part.

Where?

......if you have to be THAT good to attend - perhaps you don't need to attend a workshop. One on one coaching and other forms of learning might be more appropriate.

Maybe ... but you can also benefit greatly from ideas and feedback from your peergroup ... and, as said before, its a querstion of having to travel to the top level instructors ... they are a long way away.

Secondly, if the entry standard is too high, the workshops may not be economically viable.

The idea is to bolt the workshop onto another event so we can absorb the overgheads. May even make it free .. service to community and all that.

Thirdly, the introduction of assessment requries the introduction of assessors. You also need to ensure the quality and ability of the assessors is appropriate for the standard you require in the workshop..

I have absolutue faityh in the assessor

[David Bailey]

Ahem ... YES ... there is an assessment system .. its called an experienced teacher dnacing and observibng those who want to the workshop and saying yes or no .... just as they do with Haraang. Simple n'est pas?

Simple, but a nightmare to organise except in a single-venue environment, as I said previously.

In a multi-venue environment, do you get your one assessor to visit each venue and perform assessments for 1 or 2 people a time? Obviously a logistical nightmare*. Do you get your potential customers to schlep their way to an evening of auditions a la X-Factor? Possible logistically, but I can't see you getting many people volunteering for that experience.

Therefore you need a system, if you're operating across multiple venues. And I'd be somewhat surprised if there's any single venue which would give you 20+ advanced dancers willing to do this workshop.

* Conceivably, you might be able to do this if you got (say) 4-5 potential customers, over 4-5 venues, if you're willing to spend a week of nights travelling to these venues. But even then it's a lot of investment.

I have absolutue faityh in the assessor

So what is the system? What are your criteria? Or is it just gut feeling after dancing?

[Gus]

So what is the system? What are your criteria? Or is it just gut feeling after dancing?

As per Haraang ... the punters will be there for the other workshops (its part of an all day event), at an appointed time those who would like to take part in the "God Among Mortals" workshop line up and dance. The assessor looks at them, dances with them and assesses whether their undertanding of connection, beat and movement is sufficient. As its a single instructor doing the assesment they know what they are looking for and their word is final. Most experienced instrauctors do this intuitively when reviewing their class after a lesson ... you can see who has got it and those who are struggling. Ity ODEASN'T have to be too scientific ... its not life or death ... ITS NOT TANGO

[DavidB]

You could do a 'Weakest Link' assessment - run one workshop, and everyone who takes part gets to vote one person out. The least popular leader & follower leave, and then get to bitch about everyone else on the workshop video.

Joking aside, you might be able to do something constructive with this. Have a workshop, everyone dances with someone, and then has to write a critique of their partner (probably fill in a form to rate various criteria from 1 to 10) Then you swap partners and repeat the process until every leader has danced with every follower. At the end of the workshop, you give each person their critiques, so they know what to work on. You also know what sort of workshops to run in future, and who should (or shouldn't) attend.

You make sure everyone knows it is all about constructive criticism. However you also keep everything anonymous.

[Lory]

You could do a 'Weakest Link' assessment - run one workshop, and everyone who takes part gets to vote one person out. The least popular leader & follower leave, and then get to bitch about everyone else on the workshop video.

That'd make a great TV show, I'd watch it!