‘Elite’ (Hotshot?) Workshops

[Gus]

Are we ready for workshops where you have to prove how good you are before you can take part? There have been many complaints about top class workshops ruined because its above the level of some of those attending.

So … how about a workshop that’s targeted at the Best … Teachers, Open level competitors etc. Like Harrang, if you want to be part of the course you need to prove you are up to it.

Is this a legitimate proposition or is it elitism? If it such workshops were to be made available, what topics would have to be taught to attract the 'Best' and who would this elite consider good enough to teach them?

[Lory]

I think its fine, as long as its made completely clear, what one's expected to be able to do, beforehand!

In fact I think its a good/fair idea.

There's nothing worse than going to a workshop expecting to be pushed, then spending your time re-learning the basics again.

At the same time, I'd hate the be the person, who was holding everyone else up!

[Gus]

At the same time, I'd hate the be the person, who was holding everyone else up!

.... but I'd bet many would pay good money to be on the audition panel, deciding if people were good enough. Now, how you set criteria for acceptance, that would be another interesting debate.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I Have run workshops that have been done by invertition only. The reason for this is the numbers were limited to 16 and I wanted to target the dancers that I felt could handle the workshop and would get the most out of it.

I ran a night club 2 step one prior to doing this and had alot of dance beginners turn up even though it was advertised as an intermediate workshop and alot of them struggled holding back the intermediates.

[NZ Monkey]

I think most of us have been in a workshop aimed at, and advertised as catering to, dancers with a higher than average level of technical competence in one way or another. There’s always a few there who clearly don’t have the requisite skill there, and if there’s enough of them then the whole class suffers. It annoys me.

The only way I can see around that problem on a national level is to introduce some sort of standardized test that gives you a clear, unambiguous benchmark. On a local level you can sometimes get away with invitation only workshops, but that can be a breeding ground for hurt feelings and petty politics and if the area is sufficiently large it’s very difficult for the teacher to have a decent overview of everyone.

Now, if I was feeling particularly diabolical I might mention something about coloured cards right about now…..

[robd]

I ran a night club 2 step one prior to doing this

There you go Caro. Want to learn more NC2S? Just hook up with Lee....

Back to the thread question I don't think it would work. Amir probably got closest with some advanced sessions he ran on Thursdays for Jango attendees at a certain card level - but the card levels were based on experience (i.e number of jango classes attended) rather than ability and the two don't always go hand in hand. Without a formal assessment system for MJ I just don't see how anyone would be willing or able to 'grade' dancers and decide if they were suitable or otherwise for a workshop to the satisfaction of both those being graded and those doing the grading..

[Caro]

I ran a night club 2 step one ....

There you go Caro. Want to learn more NC2S? Just hook up with Lee....

well I must say I had a bit of a jaw dopping moment here

But I haven't seen Lee dancing NC2S, so I won't make any comment.

In fact, and believe me I NEVER thought I would say that, and it cost me to even write it, but... Lee, would you save me a NC2S dance please if we ever have the opportunity* ?
It goes without saying that it will be a no dip/drop, no aerial dance, you understand

*Now anybody who says I'm not open to new possibilities... well I'll... kick your ass, or something.


oh and on the thread topic: yeah good idea, there are pros and cons, don't mind really. Invitational workshop sounds good, but are usually very limited in numbers, though (unless you have a lot of advanced dancers friends ).

[Little Monkey]

Back to the thread question I don't think it would work.

At WCS weekenders in France you apparently have to 'audition' to be placed in the right class. Seems to work for them.

I'd love to go to some advanced workshops with no beginners or intermediates, so that it's actually possible for the teachers to stick to the planned workshop, and the advanced dancers can actually learn something and push their dance abilities too. I've been to too many workshops that are billed 'advanced' where I've either ended up being a man or teaching the beginner/intermediate men in the class the basics, and not learned anything whatsoever as a result.

[Lee Bartholomew]

well I must say I had a bit of a jaw dopping moment here

But I haven't seen Lee dancing NC2S, so I won't make any comment.

In fact, and believe me I NEVER thought I would say that, and it cost me to even write it, but... Lee, would you save me a NC2S dance please if we ever have the opportunity* ?
It goes without saying that it will be a no dip/drop, no aerial dance, you understand

*Now anybody who says I'm not open to new possibilities... well I'll... kick your ass, or something.

Yeah i'll save you one if you save a MJ one for me. lol. No dips drops or arieals (dont do them with anyone I dont norm dance with anyway)

[robd]

At WCS weekenders in France you apparently have to 'audition' to be placed in the right class. Seems to work for them.

Hmm, I think the brits who went across to Paris last year (in Jan?) might disagree with that

[Caro]

Yeah i'll save you one if you save a MJ one for me.

well don't push your luck or my good mood too far, will you

[NZ Monkey]

Hmm, I think the brits who went across to Paris last year (in Jan?) might disagree with that

The Kiwi who went with them didn't mind though.

I was comfortable with their decision of where to place me, and think they got it right. Really, all they're doing is seeing if you're a beginner, reasonably technically competent or a stand-out from the crowd. It’s not exactly a thorough “test” but those are sufficiently broad categories that it doesn’t need to be.

[David Franklin]

Are we ready for workshops where you have to prove how good you are before you can take part? There have been many complaints about top class workshops ruined because its above the level of some of those attending.

So … how about a workshop that’s targeted at the Best … Teachers, Open level competitors etc. Like Harrang, if you want to be part of the course you need to prove you are up to it.

My suggestion: let people pick their own groups to rotate amongst, and just don't worry about who can or can't keep up. Then it doesn't really matter who wants to do the class.

If you really want a workshop at your level, you might be better off with a private lesson. I think most teachers are prepared to do a private "mini-workstop" with 3-4 couples for not much more than they'd charge 1 couple.

[Lory]

Now, how you set criteria for acceptance, that would be another interesting debate.

Well, for WCS, I reckon there's a relatively easy way of culling the total beginners from an intermediates and advanced workshop.

I'd want to be sure, at the very least, that people could perform the footwork, technically correctly, for the following moves with a partner and also independently?

Sugar push, Leftside pass, Rightside pass, Whip and Tuck out.

If they can't do this, they should stick with the basics... surely thats only fair?

I think for weekenders, it might be an idea (to include in the literature) to ask people to think about whether they can do these things, before they embark on the advanced classes?

[NZ Monkey]

Well, for WCS, I reckon there's a relatively easy way of culling the total beginners from an intermediates and advanced workshop.

I'd want to be sure, at the very least, that people could perform the footwork, technically correctly, for the following moves with a partner and also independently?

Sugar push, Leftside pass, Rightside pass, Whip and Tuck out.

If they can't do this, they should stick with the basics... surely thats only fair?

I think for weekenders, it might be an idea (to include in the literature) to ask people to think about whether they can do these things, before they embark on the advanced classes?

What about sorting out the Intermediates from the better-than-Intermidate* for harder workshops though? I beleive this is closer to the question Gus is raising

*For lack of a better term that everyone can agree on

[Lory]

What about sorting out the Intermediates from the better-than-Intermidate* for harder workshops though? I beleive this is closer to the question Gus is raising

*For lack of a better term that everyone can agree on

I've sorted the beginners from the inters, OK

And 'that' I'm afraid, has used up all my bright idea's for one night

[David Bailey]

Are we ready for workshops where you have to prove how good you are before you can take part?

Yesss..... But I wouldn't phrase it as "prove how good you are" - that sounds a little bad. I'd say that "implementing an assessment system" is a better way to put it.

Of course, that then leads to the "How to you assess?" question - Competition winners and teachers only? Excluding the large number of experienced social dancers who've never done either?

Which leads us back to cards...

[Feelingpink]

Rather than decide who is 'of a standard', why not make it skills based appropriate to the workshop? So if you know how to do certain steps/achieve certain things, you can take part in the workshop - wouldn't that make the most sense (more like recruitment techniques where you choose the people with the right skills)? This way it wouldn't be so gutting about 'ability' - more - 'when you can do Americans and west manhattans, then you can do the workshop'.

[timbp]

Of course, that then leads to the "How to you assess?" questio

What's wrong with everyone dancing with the workshop teacher and getting a simple yes/no answer?

I'm sure a good teacher could decide in less than a minute if any particular partner was capable of what the teachers intended to teach. So half an hour to assess 30 participants. Two teachers to assess either leaders or followers, and you get 60 people (30 of each sex) assessed in half an hour.
You can stop assessing for either sex the moment places are filled for that sex.
So the question becomes how many spaces do you have to fill, and how many people do you have to assess to find one that you accept into one of those spaces?

And then the real question becomes "how much do you have to pay the teachers for the time spent assessing who is suitable to do their class?".

I suspect it's easier just to charge the dancers what they will pay, and let them do the class regardless of their skill or the skill of those they are dancing with.

I strongly believe if a dance is marketed at a certain level, it should be taught at that level. Let those below the advertised level struggle.
Teachers should understand rotation (very few do) and use it to ensure both that poor dancers get to practice with better dancers, and that the better dancers get to practice together.
If the class is marketed as intermediate and/or advanced, the rotation should give more opportunities for the more advanced people to dance together. This appears to be rare. Any time I notice/believe the teacher is manipulating rotation, it is to pair good dancers with poor dancers. And there are times when that is appropriate. But it is not appropriate in a class marketed to more advanced dancers where less advanced dancers have participated.

I am putting a lot of onus on the teachers first to understand rotation (it amazes me how few teachers really understand how rotation works, and the benefits to the class of rotation), and secondly to manipulate the rotation to put certain people together more often (or less often).

[David Bailey]

Rather than decide who is 'of a standard', why not make it skills based appropriate to the workshop?

Yeah.

Thinking about it more, I think it's a bit silly to have a "masters class" - skills develop in such different ways past a certain level, there's less commonality between dancers. So "specialist" workshops make sense (like Franck's focus classes), and an assessment may still be useful for those, but general "Elite" workshops may not be useful.