Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

[David Franklin]

I am trying to work out here what the rules are for EVERYONE so I don't fall foul of them!!

Well that's very easy. Don't do any aerials, and you won't break any rules about aerials. You don't even have to worry if the rules have changed.

I am not looking for a fight, I am actually asking Mike Allsopp/Ceroc for clarification on the blanket ban of aerials in light of this workshop being offered to Ceroc dancers

I would be very surprised if a workshop implies the rules have changed during social dancing. There are any number of organizations that teach aerials but don't allow them during social dancing. Heck, I've seen aerials teachers explicitly say "if I see you do this move on a social dance floor, I will ban you from my venue".

It might surprise you, but I've had discussions with teachers and venue managers about how aerials might be safely allowed. And one of the biggest stumbling blocks isn't safety itself, it's the fact that whatever rules you make, there's always someone who will try and push the boundaries, or that the rules are ridiculous for them, or "why can they do it but not me?". All of which adds up to lots of aggro for the venue manager with not a lot of upside.

Do you think your posts make that stumbling block bigger or smaller?

[fletch]

I certainly hope she's not saying that David. I am trying to work out here what the rules are for EVERYONE so I don't fall foul of them!!

Dancing at an independent event this Friday I deemed it safe, in keeping with what I wanted to express in the music, within my follow's capabilities and with enough room around us - so I led a cheeky little aerial. No big deal. The same holds true when I dance at other independent venues (if there isn't a no aerials policy). I would not have danced that move at a Ceroc venue because of their restrictions.

Getting back to the subject of this thread David. I am not looking for a fight, I am actually asking Mike Allsopp/Ceroc for clarification on the blanket ban of aerials in light of this workshop being offered to Ceroc dancers, so I can continue to dance within the seemingly ever changing rules at their venues. Especially in view of Mike Allsopp's complete U-turn from encouraging aerials to rigorously stamping out of ANY aerial move at ANY in his venues.

I just want to know what the rules are (this week). I think my position in this regard is clear, and fair

thats what I ment to say

[MartinHarper]

I am actually asking Mike Allsopp/Ceroc for clarification on the blanket ban of aerials.

What's to clarify? It's a blanket ban of aerials.

[Twirlie Bird]

*how's that for proper British speaking, hey ?
The French version would go something like that: they don't care that people are not allowed to do aerials socially nor that this workshop might encourage them to break the rules, they've just realised the market for such a workshops is big, which means lots of money.

Caro, in true French style I think you may have just hit the nail exactly on the head!

[David Bailey]

I don't understand why anyone thinks the rules are being relaxed?

Workshops can teach anything - that doesn't mean everything they teach will always be directly applicable to social dancing. The obvious other example is a "competition techniques" workshop.

Ceroc weekenders regularly have lifts classes - that doesn't mean they've relaxed the rules or anything. The have pole dancing classes for that matter - but that doesn't mean people are free to bring big poles onto the dancefloor.

The last time we discussed this (last April), Franck made the position clear in this post - specifically this bit:

Every event organiser has to decide for him/herself what they want at their venue, and in this case, Ceroc have decided that we didn't want aerials, it is our choice and prerogative, as it will be everyone's choice to dance elsewhere if they want to continue.

Seems quite clear to me :shrug:

[David Bailey]

What's to clarify? It's a blanket ban of aerials.

Errr... maybe the pattern in the blanket? Tartan or plain?

[martingold]

The have pole dancing classes for that matter - but that doesn't mean people are free to bring big poles onto the dancefloor.

good grief i didnt know ceroc was racist
I happen to know some perfectly nice large polish people

[CJ]

good grief i didnt know ceroc was racist
I happen to know some perfectly nice large polish people

Some of my friends say their best dances have been with poles!!

[Twirlie Bird]

For me its allways about been seen to be fair, if its a ban then that it! its a ban, for everyone or it isn't. which is it ?

No don't agree with this, yes you might be shooting your self in the foot but people NEED to know where they stand, one rule for one!

which is it ?

are they banned or not? its just this kind of inconsistances that causes bad feeling, why can they do it and I carn't

It has to be the same rule for everyone regardless of who they are or where they dance. That is fair.

I would be very surprised if a workshop implies the rules have changed during social dancing. There are any number of organizations that teach aerials but don't allow them during social dancing. Heck, I've seen aerials teachers explicitly say "if I see you do this move on a social dance floor, I will ban you from my venue".

I really don't understand this at all! What is the point? Maybe if this point was made clear before paying your money to attend it may make 'some' sense although very little. This workshop that is being discussed is part of a series of workshops throughout the year. The workshops are in the day followed by a freestyle in the evening. Now I don't know about anyon else but I would have thought that having atended the workshop during the day I would want to try out and have a go at the stuff I had learnt during the freestyle. Isn't that usually how these things work?

It might surprise you, but I've had discussions with teachers and venue managers about how aerials might be safely allowed. And one of the biggest stumbling blocks isn't safety itself, it's the fact that whatever rules you make, there's always someone who will try and push the boundaries, or that the rules are ridiculous for them, or "why can they do it but not me?". All of which adds up to lots of aggro for the venue manager with not a lot of upside.

So it's got nothing to do with insurance at all then? Interesting.

I don't understand why anyone thinks the rules are being relaxed?

Workshops can teach anything - that doesn't mean everything they teach will always be directly applicable to social dancing. The obvious other example is a "competition techniques" workshop.

I hear you. However the workshops that are for competition techniques tend to be advertised as such. You know what you are paying for. You know that what you are learning is not for use on the social dance floor. There is no confusion.

Ceroc weekenders regularly have lifts classes - that doesn't mean they've relaxed the rules or anything. The have pole dancing classes for that matter - but that doesn't mean people are free to bring big poles onto the dancefloor.

Weekenders are different though. At weekenders you get the chance to sample many new and different things. Some are quite clearly not for use on the dance floor.

I don't think the aerials ban is in dispute here. If there's a nationwide ban, which there currently is, then this will be adhered to. This is how it has been since the ban - no problem.

What is being discussed is the confusion over this workshop. What is the point in teaching an aerials workshop when those aerials can't be danced during the freestyle that evening? 'Add flashy moves to your dancing' the leaflet says. How are you supposed to do this then if those very same moves are banned?

If aerials are banned then it seems hypocritical to teach them just to line your pockets.

[CJ]

I have given this much thought, and I think I have the answer...

It's a cunning plan. A very cunning plan. A plan sooooooooooooo cunning, you could pin a tail to it and call it a fox.

Ceroc are going to teach you aerials and other flash moves in order to encourage you to go to independents' events more often to show off your new moves!!!

[ducasi]

The workshops are in the day followed by a freestyle in the evening. Now I don't know about anyon else but I would have thought that having atended the workshop during the day I would want to try out and have a go at the stuff I had learnt during the freestyle. Isn't that usually how these things work?

Having done a mini-aerials workshop a while back, followed by a freestyle in the evening, all I can say was that it was incredible that I could still walk, never mind still dance afterwards. Actually doing any of the aerials in the freestyle was the last thing on my mind.

What is being discussed is the confusion over this workshop. What is the point in teaching an aerials workshop when those aerials can't be danced during the freestyle that evening? 'Add flashy moves to your dancing' the leaflet says. How are you supposed to do this then if those very same moves are banned?

If aerials are banned then it seems hypocritical to teach them just to line your pockets.

I agree the way you say it is being advertised sounds a touch hypocritical, though I believe there are other non-aerial moves being taught too?

[David Franklin]

I really don't understand this at all! What is the point?

To learn how to do some aerials. Maybe for a showcase. Maybe for personal satisfaction.

Maybe if this point was made clear before paying your money to attend it may make 'some' sense although very little.

I don't think there are any aerials I've learnt over the last few years that I'd consider doing at socially, but I don't consider the lessons a waste of time.

Now I don't know about anyon else but I would have thought that having atended the workshop during the day I would want to try out and have a go at the stuff I had learnt during the freestyle. Isn't that usually how these things work?

No, not for aerials. I've been at freestyles where people have a go at the aerials they learnt during the day. It's scary.

So it's got nothing to do with insurance at all then? Interesting.

I said it's one of the biggest stumbling blocks. For Ceroc, the insurance thing is probably a showstopper regardless.

If aerials are banned then it seems hypocritical to teach them just to line your pockets.

I do largely agree with you here, particularly if they're taught under the Ceroc banner, with no disclaimer saying you can't actually use them at Ceroc venues. Would you be happier if the workshop was cancelled?

[Twirlie Bird]

Having done a mini-aerials workshop a while back, followed by a freestyle in the evening, all I can say was that it was incredible that I could still walk, never mind still dance afterwards. Actually doing any of the aerials in the freestyle was the last thing on my mind.

Agreed. You know what I am saying though. Should anyone wish to try it out and there is sufficient space etc they will not be able to.

I agree the way you say it is being advertised sounds a touch hypocritical, though I believe there are other non-aerial moves being taught too?

Yes there are seducers too. No problem with that. Just seems a weird addition.

[Twirlie Bird]

I have given this much thought, and I think I have the answer...

It's a cunning plan. A very cunning plan. A plan sooooooooooooo cunning, you could pin a tail to it and call it a fox.

Ceroc are going to teach you aerials and other flash moves in order to encourage you to go to independents' events more often to show off your new moves!!!

That is so very kind of them and so thoughtful and giving. They really should receive some sort of award. Any ideas?

. For Ceroc, the insurance thing is probably a showstopper regardless.

I do largely agree with you here, particularly if they're taught under the Ceroc banner, with no disclaimer saying you can't actually use them at Ceroc venues. Would you be happier if the workshop was cancelled?

I just feel it's hypocritical and coming from this franchisee makes it even more so.

As for cancelling it. You offering to do so David?

[David Franklin]

As for cancelling it. You offering to do so David?

No, but if enough people feel as you do then you should probably let the organiser know.

[TheTramp]

Seems fairly easy to me....

If you want to go and learn some aerials for use where they are permitted, such as competitions - and it is competition season coming up with Blackpool and Ceroc comps, then go to the workshop to learn aerials for that specified use.

If you don't want to learn aerials for this purpose, then don't go.

Aerials are still banned at social Ceroc venues.

Is there any point of any further discussion?

[Mary]

Seems fairly easy to me....

If you want to go and learn some aerials for use where they are permitted, such as competitions - and it is competition season coming up with Blackpool and Ceroc comps, then go to the workshop to learn aerials for that specified use.

If you don't want to learn aerials for this purpose, then don't go.

Aerials are still banned at social Ceroc venues.

Is there any point of any further discussion?

M

[David Bailey]

It has to be the same rule for everyone regardless of who they are or where they dance. That is fair.

Yes. Why - do you know somewhere it's not being applied then?

I really don't understand this at all! What is the point? Maybe if this point was made clear before paying your money to attend it may make 'some' sense although very little. This workshop that is being discussed is part of a series of workshops throughout the year. The workshops are in the day followed by a freestyle in the evening. Now I don't know about anyon else but I would have thought that having atended the workshop during the day I would want to try out and have a go at the stuff I had learnt during the freestyle. Isn't that usually how these things work?

Yes. Except for stuff that's not appropriate.

Weekender classess and workshops teach a lot of stuff which is not really appropriate for general social dancing. And a bit of common sense would make it clear that, if something's banned from social dancing, then it's banned.

Sorry, but no matter how you spin this, the worst you can say is that there's poor communication about the workshops - even then I don't think it's a big thing. The rules are clear, and they've been clear since last April.

I hear you. However the workshops that are for competition techniques tend to be advertised as such. You know what you are paying for. You know that what you are learning is not for use on the social dance floor. There is no confusion.

I'm not confused; and I refer the honorable lady to the "common sense" point above...

Weekenders are different though. At weekenders you get the chance to sample many new and different things. Some are quite clearly not for use on the dance floor.

I refer the honorable lady to...

If aerials are banned then it seems hypocritical to teach them just to line your pockets.

Mmmm. Depends. If the workshop description implied that these could be used in social dancing, yeah. Otherwise, I don't think it's a big deal.

But whilst it sounds like we can all agree the workshop may be a bit "hypocritical", that's nothing to do with the OP.