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Thread: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Six months or so ago there was a big fuss made about banning ALL aerial moves from Ceroc venues nation wide. Both Mike Ellard and Dave Bradley assured me that 'no aerials' had always been Ceroc's policy, they went on to say that it had just never been strictly policed before. Although the ban seems to be being enforced patchily depending on the franchise you are dancing in.

    In my area the act of lifting both feet from the floor at a Ceroc venue went from being actively encouraged to being suddenly and rigorously stamped out!! Recently a local dancer even went and 'reported' Lucky and Ruby who were at the 'Rat Pack' event and did a impromptu cabaret performance such is the level of indoctrination (and complete lack of knowledge about Ceroc's Pro dancers) in the area

    So, imagine my complete surprise and delight to discover that Ceroc Midlands are planning on a workshop to teach 'baby aerials' - as you can see HERE. This is great news! The promotional material for the event says "Add flashy moves to your dancing - fabulous range of stylish and sexy seducers and Baby Aerials with the focus on style and safety".

    Assuming that Ceroc Midlands aren't going to charge people to learn dance moves that they are not able to actually use in any of their venues, the only logical conclusion is that the rules are being relaxed to allow baby aerials to be taught and danced at Ceroc venues nationally.

    Is it possible to get a list of these approved moves please. Mike Allsopp (or any other Franchisee) must have a list of the aerials that are now approved to teach and dance. I know Mike Allsopp reads the forum, so please would he post it here for the benefit of all of us?

    Will the 'no aerials' rule be relaxed after the workshop, or is it with immediate effect?

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Maybe it's a balls up. Or so these moves can be used outside Ceroc venues!

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Maybe it's a balls up. Or so these moves can be used outside Ceroc venues!
    LOL I don't think it makes much business sense to teach something that will encourage your dancers to seek out other venues... do you!!

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    With the champs coming up, maybe the workshop is aimed at those wanting to compete at the higher level, where they're allowed to include arials or the arial catagory its self?
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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    With the champs coming up, maybe the workshop is aimed at those wanting to compete at the higher level, where they're allowed to include arials or the arial catagory its self?
    I think if that was the case it would be more than baby aerials...

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Is it possible to get a list of these approved moves please. Mike Allsopp (or any other Franchisee) must have a list of the aerials that are now approved to teach and dance. I know Mike Allsopp reads the forum, so please would he post it here for the benefit of all of us?

    Will the 'no aerials' rule be relaxed after the workshop, or is it with immediate effect?
    Methinks you are jumping to conclusions and raising your hopes very high.

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    The promotional material for the event says "Add flashy moves to your dancing - fabulous range of stylish and sexy seducers and Baby Aerials with the focus on style and safety".
    I think I'd either want a workshop on baby aerials, or a class on a range of seducers. A workshop that tries to cover both risks being rubbish.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Assuming that Ceroc Midlands aren't going to charge people to learn dance moves that they are not able to actually use in any of their venues...
    I wouldn't make that assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Will the 'no aerials' rule be relaxed after the workshop, or is it with immediate effect?
    Maybe only those who do the workshop will be licensed to do aerials?

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    Registered User Miss Molly's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    I recall one of my friends learning to kitesurf and being given a card that was stamped everytime he trained in and perfected something complicated... it also ascertained his level of competence and skill (colour-coded to make it pretty)... is this the way other things will go... with dancing become like Karate whren you get upgraded the more you improve... will we all be given little cards to show we have "safely completed" workshops in dips, drops and aerials and are therefore safe to be let on the dancefloor... talk about big brother and the nanny state ....

    The suspected reason I hear is always to do with public liability insurance.... "Ceroc has it so they don't want dancers claiming off it... other venues don't so if you get injured, tough luck".

    (Which, off topic slightly, reminds me, has there been a thread about who has their own personal insurance on here? My friend and I discussing if this is worth having).

    Back onto topic, having danced at non-ceroc venues I have seen people doing aerials and in one case a birthday circle where the birthday girl was lifted onto the lead's legs - and promptly dropped on her head... and no-one seemed concerned!! Needless to say I don't dance there very often!

    Aerials seem to be a lot more permissable in the Lindy world... but that perhaps it is in honour of its history and development, where dancers actively sought to outdo each other by inventing the flashiest and most complicated airsteps they could... but poor Lucky & Ruby, I can't believe that!! Even at Ceroc franchises that play by the aerials rules they don't apply to Cabaret - its no longer a social dancefloor at that point.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Assuming that Ceroc Midlands aren't going to charge people to learn dance moves that they are not able to actually use in any of their venues, the only logical conclusion is that the rules are being relaxed to allow baby aerials to be taught and danced at Ceroc venues nationally.
    Bad assumption. Bad logic. (No biscuit).

    Incidentally, if Mike Ellard sees your post, what do you think is the more likely reaction:

    (a) get rid of the nationwide aerials ban?
    (b) get rid of the aerials workshop?

    I know which I think is more likely, so I really do think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Bad assumption. Bad logic. (No biscuit).

    Incidentally, if Mike Ellard sees your post, what do you think is the more likely reaction:

    (a) get rid of the nationwide aerials ban?
    (b) get rid of the aerials workshop?

    I know which I think is more likely, so I really do think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.
    William Hill are being sued for a lot of money on the basis that they had a rule in place that they failed to enforce. Ceroc cannot guarantee to enforce an arials ban. If they install one IMHO they are leaving the door open for a financial disaster. e.g. Mr X was banned at venue X but was let in and caused an accident at venue Y ...

    I have seen no evidence of a ban at the venues I attend.

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    William Hill are being sued for a lot of money on the basis that they had a rule in place that they failed to enforce. Ceroc cannot guarantee to enforce an arials ban. If they install one IMHO they are leaving the door open for a financial disaster. e.g. Mr X was banned at venue X but was let in and caused an accident at venue Y ...

    I have seen no evidence of a ban at the venues I attend.
    Well, there is an amendment to the ceroc membership rules which should have been displayed at some time at your local ceroc venue. Basically any member agrees to abide by these rules including any amendments that may be introduced from time to time.

    The whole point of the aerials ban is due to insurance afaik. If you do an aerial move, you and your partner may be competent and not hurt yourself, but if you happen to clobber someone - even if its their fault - it becomes a problem.

    On the basis that you agree to the tems of membership by going to a ceroc venue, should you break these rules, ceroc may ask you to refrain from breaking the rules or leave. Should you injure someone, you were breaking the rules and therefore should a claim take place it would probably come back to haunt you , rather than claim from Ceroc's PL insurance.

    On that point, how many independants do actually hold PL insurance anyway ?

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    William Hill are being sued for a lot of money on the basis that they had a rule in place that they failed to enforce.
    No, they are being sued because (it is alleged) that they failed in their duty of care.

    Note that "duty of care" does NOT require 'guarantees', merely that the individual or organization acts reasonably. Although it's not clear Mr Calvert will succeed in any part of the case, the opinions I've read say his chances are far greater for bets made on his credit account than for his large cash bets. Simply because it is far less reasonable to expect all William Hill staff to recognize a self-excluded individual than it is for it not to be flagged up by the computerized credit system.

    More generally, you cannot 'avoid' duty-of-care liabilities by simply saying "oh, we won't have any safety rules, so you can't blame us for not enforcing them". If there are avoidable and foreseeable dangers that an organization decides not to act upon, then they're likely to be held liable. In addition, if someone gets hurt "and there's no one else to blame", then the organizing body is likely to be found liable by default(*).

    The last point is important, because if you have a "no aerials" rule, and someone injures someone doing an aerial, the breach of the rule would give a venue a strong case to say "it's his fault, sue him not us".

    I have seen no evidence of a ban at the venues I attend.
    I grant you that this is likely to put the venue in potential liability. I really suggest you tell Mike Ellard about these venues so he can take the appropriate action.

    (*) In a sense, this isn't terribly fair. It's done more on pragmatic terms than because of 'justice' - if no-one else is in a position to provide compensation, that duty falls on the organizing body who will hopefully have liability insurance.

    [Source for a lot of this here. You see similar discussions for a lot of sports, but this seems one of the closest matches to the dancing with aerials discussion].

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    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Is it possible to get a list of these approved moves please. Mike Allsopp (or any other Franchisee) must have a list of the aerials that are now approved to teach and dance. I know Mike Allsopp reads the forum, so please would he post it here for the benefit of all of us?

    Will the 'no aerials' rule be relaxed after the workshop, or is it with immediate effect?
    For me its allways about been seen to be fair, if its a ban then that it! its a ban, for everyone or it isn't. which is it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    With the champs coming up, maybe the workshop is aimed at those wanting to compete at the higher level, where they're allowed to include arials or the arial catagory its self?
    No sorry Lory not in the Midlands this will just send out mixed messages.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Bad assumption. Bad logic. (No biscuit).

    Incidentally, if Mike Ellard sees your post, what do you think is the more likely reaction:

    (a) get rid of the nationwide aerials ban?
    (b) get rid of the aerials workshop?

    I know which I think is more likely, so I really do think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

    No don't agree with this, yes you might be shooting your self in the foot but people NEED to know where they stand, one rule for one!

    which is it ?

    are they banned or not? its just this kind of inconsistances that causes bad feeling, why can they do it and I carn't

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    The Dashing Moderator
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin View Post
    Well, there is an amendment to the ceroc membership rules which should have been displayed at some time at your local ceroc venue.
    Maybe I didn't go to Ceroc that week - it's not something I can ever recall being displayed at my local venues.

    I don't do aerials and knew about the ban from reading here, but I've never noticed it locally.

    Ceroc send me enough emails advertising weekends - why don't they use it to tell people about something important like changes to membership rules?
    Love dance, will travel

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    No don't agree with this, yes you might be shooting your self in the foot, but people NEED to know where they stand.
    one rule for one!
    This is going somewhat OT, but suppose aerials were allowed in some 'regulated' manner designed to keep things safe.

    Couple A does an allowed aerial safely and inside the rules.
    Couple B does the same aerial, but they can't do it safely (in the opinion of the venue manager - for sake of argument assume he knows what he's doing).

    What happens? Does couple B get told "you can't do that" or do we say "one rule for everyone"?

    are they banned or not? its just this kind of inconsistances that causes bad feeling, why can they do it and I carn't
    And that's why I don't see anything other than a total ban happening - anything else is just asking for trouble if you're a venue manager.

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    And that's why I don't see anything other than a total ban happening - anything else is just asking for trouble if you're a venue manager.

    what if its the venue manager thats making up the rules as they go along?

    how would that make there punters feel?

    i'm sure Stokie knows the venues that are OK about aerial and adjusts his dance moves accordingly.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch View Post
    I'm sure Stokie knows the venues that are OK about aerial and adjusts his dance moves accordingly.
    So, you're saying it's one rule for Stokie?

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    So, you're saying it's one rule for Stokie?
    I think its his place to answer that

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    So, you're saying it's one rule for Stokie?
    I certainly hope she's not saying that David. I am trying to work out here what the rules are for EVERYONE so I don't fall foul of them!!

    Dancing at an independent event this Friday I deemed it safe, in keeping with what I wanted to express in the music, within my follow's capabilities and with enough room around us - so I led a cheeky little aerial. No big deal. The same holds true when I dance at other independent venues (if there isn't a no aerials policy). I would not have danced that move at a Ceroc venue because of their restrictions.

    Getting back to the subject of this thread David. I am not looking for a fight, I am actually asking Mike Allsopp/Ceroc for clarification on the blanket ban of aerials in light of this workshop being offered to Ceroc dancers, so I can continue to dance within the seemingly ever changing rules at their venues. Especially in view of Mike Allsopp's complete U-turn from encouraging aerials to rigorously stamping out of ANY aerial move at ANY in his venues.

    I just want to know what the rules are (this week). I think my position in this regard is clear, and fair

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    Re: Aerials - The Rules Are Being Relaxed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Assuming that Ceroc Midlands aren't going to charge people to learn dance moves that they are not able to actually use in any of their venues, the only logical conclusion is that the rules are being relaxed to allow baby aerials to be taught and danced at Ceroc venues nationally.
    I'm not sure* I'd find it that incredible* to learn that the ban is to remain in place, but given the interest* for aerials they have decided to teach it to people in a class environment*.


    *how's that for proper British speaking, hey ?
    The French version would go something like that: they don't care that people are not allowed to do aerials socially nor that this workshop might encourage them to break the rules, they've just realised the market for such a workshops is big, which means lots of money.

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