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Thread: Preps – good or bad?

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Preps – good or bad?

    [Moved from the "What would attract you to a new venue?" thread. – ducasi]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    No over turning or preparing for turns / returns
    I'd like to know why your not teaching to 'prepare' for turns..

    ..to me it's one of the most important things i've learnt
    Last edited by ducasi; 18th-March-2008 at 08:12 PM. Reason: moved
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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'd like to know why your not teaching to 'prepare' for turns..

    ..to me it's one of the most important things i've learnt
    I'm guessing because that way lies non-slotted dancing

    I also find preparing for turns and returns useful, especially if the lady has turned herself under my arm, then the extra distance travelled in the prep helps get back onto the beat.

    Dan

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'd like to know why your not teaching to 'prepare' for turns..

    ..to me it's one of the most important things i've learnt
    But prep-ing too much as lead can make it seeem your leading something else. Especially if you turn your body/shoulders.

    & SPROGSS ==>

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    But prep-ing too much as lead can make it seeem your leading something else. Especially if you turn your body/shoulders.
    Of course, anything done/taught incorrectly is naff
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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Of course, anything done/taught incorrectly is naff
    Of course not but some people see signals in different ways. I was told by someone who knows someone who now dances in Austrailia. He led a move and the follower mistook it for a drop whereas it meant something completely different back here. I don't know what the move was mind...

    Women (and men) are not mind readers...

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Of course not but some people see signals in different ways.
    But Lory wasn't talking about signals...

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    But Lory wasn't talking about signals...
    That was an example. Her point was too broad and one that I both do & don't agree with.

    It depends.

    On what...depends on the question.

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I'd like to know why your not teaching to 'prepare' for turns..

    ..to me it's one of the most important things i've learnt
    Preps are a good thing, but I think the way Ceroc teaches over-turned preps for some turns and spins is a bit over the top, and is simply there to make up for poor technique.

    It serves as a replacement for attention to weight (i.e. what foot your follower is on) and lack of tension (i.e. the prep becomes a signal for tension, where if the tension was there in the first place, such a large prep wouldn't be needed.)

    If you know your follower is on the right foot, and she has the correct tension in her arms, an over-turned prep is unnecessary.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Preps are a good thing,.
    Every dancer I enjoy dancing with, without exception (whether they realize they do it or not) aligns their body and mine, in such a way, as to prepare us for the next move....

    ...to me, this is what makes for a smooth, seamless and flowing dance, rather than a jurky one, where one has to constantly be on ones toes.

    It just my personal preference, of something I value very highly in a dancer!
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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    But prep-ing too much as lead can make it seeem your leading something else. Especially if you turn your body/shoulders.


    I don't think you're giving this enough careful thought. Dancing in general involves the whole body in complete harmony in balancing and best using the forces available to manage the transition from one movement to the next. Prepping occurs where a change of direction is involved and aids a smooth transition from one to the other and, of course, the whole body is involved from the ball of each foot upwards.

    Watch an athlete. A discus thrower for instance, as he preps by lowering his body in a CW turn so that he can use all the strength of his legs as well as his upper body in the following explosive ACW build up to the throw itself.

    Dancing is far more subtle and gentle than that, but the same principles of movement and countermovement apply. Though in this instance the thoughtful dancer is seeking to smooth and cushion the dance so that the forces acting at the physical connection are as low as possible.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    I think everyone is correct in what they are saying and saying the same thing, just seeing it different.

    When I said no over turning/ prepping, I was refering to the fact that alot of classes take it to the extreme, teaching preps that add another 90 degree turn on the follows turn.

    If you have just come out of a turn and need returning, there is no need to over prep by forcing the follows arm out to the side, causing a mass over-rotation of the follow.

    The way I feel it should be done is the follows arm brought back to waist level after the first turn and then raised for the return. The raise gives the follow the signal and time to prep for the turn. Doing this causes the follow to have less of task turning, makes the dance smoother and will keep the dance on slot.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    The way I feel it should be done is the follows arm brought back to waist level after the first turn and then raised for the return. The raise gives the follow the signal and time to prep for the turn. Doing this causes the follow to have less of task turning, makes the dance smoother and will keep the dance on slot.

    Unless the follower is ahead of the beat (v common in my experience), and so it makes more sense to extend the turn than to leave your hand at waist level in front of you, doing nothing until the next beat starts and the return can begin.

    I feel that if you're going for a smooth dance then you should always be moving, slowing down before changing direction like a pendulum at the top of its swing.

    If you can teach people to appreciate the full length of time a count gives you, and to time their movements correctly, then it would probably look better to not have lots of overextensions and 90 degree preps.

    Dan

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    Unless the follower is ahead of the beat (v common in my experience),
    VERY COMMON!

    And something that will always happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    If you can teach people to appreciate the full length of time a count gives you, and to time their movements correctly, then it would probably look better to not have lots of overextensions and 90 degree preps.
    Coupled with the first points showing a follow that isn't following.

    Extra prep time or a slightly extended return by position adjustment is too commonly required for followers that that preemt. Otherwise you could just hang about for half a beat before carrying on. Or go off beat. Urgggh!

    I do think that a count actually covers a WHOLE beat rather thatn the first half or so of it, it just not taught enough. And the fact that in lessons, people should be finishing on a certain count eg count 8 on a first move. There's not enough emphasis on these things IMO.

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    VERY COMMON!
    Not so much, I'd say. Depends on how the move is lead.

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Every dancer I enjoy dancing with, ......... aligns their body and mine, in such a way, as to prepare us for the next move....

    ...to me, this is what makes for a smooth, seamless and flowing dance,
    I'll use just two examples of where the Leader will make these corrections.

    1.) A return, where the follower either deliberately or accidentally travels as they complete the turn. The Leader will "feel" and/or "see" the misalignment and step in and/or across to align for the start of the next move.

    2.) A sway, where the follower would normally be alongside or even hip to hip at the completion of the half turn in. The Leader must feel that the gap is not going as expected and move to ensure that as the follower completes the half turn that the couple are in position to continue with the sway.

    As I've said many times before, it is a partnership, where both do their part in making the dance enjoyable and neither should use any errors as a reason to blame the other. Working together and feeling the move is key!

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Not so much, I'd say. Depends on how the move is lead.
    That's just rubbish when referring to a meer step forward as what me (and I think) geb were referring to.

    If the follower pre-empts the lead to step forward, then there isn't much you can do without either using too much resistence (ruins connection) or just to blaintantly tell them.

    So how do you cope with this pre-emptive stepping forward by the follower?

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Every dancer I enjoy dancing with, without exception (whether they realize they do it or not) aligns their body and mine, in such a way, as to prepare us for the next move....
    We always realise it. Well well should. But too much constant correction can be a bit annoying. But having to correct ; is that down to sloppy turns/returns by the follower or sloppy leads of turns/returns by the lead? I find it's usually (but not always) the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    ...to me, this is what makes for a smooth, seamless and flowing dance, rather than a jurky one, where one has to constantly be on ones toes.
    For the follower, yes.

    For the lead, they have to make constant...corrections...on...every...turn...etc.. .

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    Re: Preps – good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    Coupled with the first points showing a follow that isn't following.

    Extra prep time or a slightly extended return by position adjustment is too commonly required for followers that that preemt. Otherwise you could just hang about for half a beat before carrying on. Or go off beat. Urgggh!
    I think I can read "blame culture" in your comments.
    What about doing your bit to make it work?

    Dance regularly with Beginners or new Improvers. You will make corrections throughout the majority of moves. It's not their fault they end up in an unexpected position/location. They just don't know yet how to follow your lead.
    Once you accept that you are capable of smoothing out the routine, you become aware of your responsibility in the enjoyment partnership.

    As an example.
    Last week we had a small crowd at a temporary venue. I danced with two first nighters about three times each.
    One was simply brilliant at following and we did a wide variety of both beginners and intermediate moves. Her friend was not as good, but on our last dance we "connected", all much simpler moves but it flowed. I was overjoyed and gave her a big thankyou hug.
    Terribly embarrassed after I realised what I had done. She must have been at least 35 years my junior. I hope she comes back.
    Last edited by dep; 19th-March-2008 at 12:46 PM.

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    We always realise it. Well well should. But too much constant correction can be a bit annoying. But having to correct ; is that down to sloppy turns/returns by the follower or sloppy leads of turns/returns by the lead? I find it's usually (but not always) the former.



    For the follower, yes.

    For the lead, they have to make constant...corrections...on...every...turn...etc.. .
    definitely blame culture.
    Steven,
    MAKE IT WORK!!!!

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    Re: What would attract you to a new venue?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    definitely blame culture.
    Steven,
    MAKE IT WORK!!!!
    I know how to make it work.

    Just merely making the points...

    ...hmm...

    So as I stated before "So how do you cope with this pre-emptive stepping forward by the follower?"

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