View Poll Results: Should Berwick-upon-Tweed be in Scotland?

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  • Yes

    11 55.00%
  • No

    1 5.00%
  • Don't care / mind

    5 25.00%
  • Where's Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    3 15.00%
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Thread: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

  1. #21
    An Eclectic Toaster
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Do you seriously think this isn't a massively dumb stunt?
    FWIW I agree that this one is a stunt, but not "massively dumb" one. If the folk of Berwick had been up in arms ridiculing the idea then yes. However, they seem interested - even the local council was open to it. The impression one gets up here is that it's seen as a minor issue, and everyone seems happy that Berwick gets a bit of publicity out of it.

    As ever, when it comes to drawing borders, no-one quite manages to screw it up like Westminster. They don't exactly have a great track record, mind - Kashmir, Iraq, Israel, Ulster...
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    It reminds me of the nuclear-free zones the Loony Left councils in the 1980s...
    Most amusing of all being Strathclyde, home to 2 nuclear power stations and - oh, that's right - the largest concentration of nuclear weapons in the world at one point. Allow me to present my second award of the day: "British Gesture Politics Stunt of the Century" - Strathclyde Councillors, 1974-1996

  2. #22
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Hi David,
    the alternative arguments that you ask for are already cited in the discussion/comments in that same link as I repeated in my post.
    I contend that correct means the median line, not the angle of the coast at landfall.

  3. #23
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Continuation of land borders, median line and proximity are all possible ways to carve it up. Proximity seems to me to be fairest as a starting point, but I'm sure in any negotiated secession, a nice simple line would be drawn.

    In my earlier link, there is a row going on about which boundary line applies, with lots of pictures.

    Just about the only negotiated split of a country I can think of is the Czech/Slovak split. Here, the total capital wealth of the country was split roughly in accordance with the populations of the new states (they also split their national debt). The only exception was natural resources, which belonged to whoever's state they fell in. Unfortunately, they have no sea borders, so there's no useful precedent.

  4. #24
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    Hi David,
    the alternative arguments that you ask for are already cited in the discussion/comments in that same link as I repeated in my post.
    Fair enough.

    But, err, does Scotland have jurisdiction over the sea? Coz I don't think it does - and if I'm right, what does it matter where a line is drawn?

  5. #25
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    The Scottish Authorities or Scottish departments of UK Authorities are responsible for controlling what is permitted in our waters.

    The "line" was the first time that the UK took unilateral action on realising that much of the North Sea and it's mineral /oil wealth would fall into Scottish hands if we were ever to become independent. It was a pre-emptive move.

  6. #26
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirstMove View Post
    Look at this map, showing how an England/Scotland split of the oilfields would occur (granted there are a few competing ways to work this out). Now imagine what happens if you switch ownership of Berwick. Billions of pounds of dowry.
    An arbitrary line, which if moved a few miles isn't likely to make the slightest bit of difference.

    To answer DJ's question – there is no separation of Scottish and English waters as far as oil & gas revenue is concerned. (I guess there must be for rule of law but I haven't looked into this.)

    It will only really be important if (when) Scotland becomes independent. I think the proximity or median lines would be the fairest way. Of course, when (if) Scotland becomes independent, I imagine the current Scotland/England border will also be re-examined. It must be possible to tidy it up a bit...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. Steve Martin, LA Story

  7. #27
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    The Scottish Authorities or Scottish departments of UK Authorities are responsible for controlling what is permitted in our waters.
    Which? Scottish authorities or UK Authorities? In other words, is this stuff under the control of Westminster or Edinburgh? If Norway decides to invade again, who's in charge?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    The "line" was the first time that the UK took unilateral action on realising that much of the North Sea and it's mineral /oil wealth would fall into Scottish hands if we were ever to become independent. It was a pre-emptive move.
    Who drew that line? Is it in an official document somewhere then?

  8. #28
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    An arbitrary line, which if moved a few miles isn't likely to make the slightest bit of difference.

    To answer DJ's question there is no separation of Scottish and English waters as far as oil & gas revenue is concerned. (I guess there must be for rule of law but I haven't looked into this.)

    It will only really be important if (when) Scotland becomes independent. I think the proximity or median lines would be the fairest way. Of course, when (if) Scotland becomes independent, I imagine the current Scotland/England border will also be re-examined. It must be possible to tidy it up a bit...


    Note following independence how ...


    The English line appears to drift 300 miles north and includes the Brent oil fields before linking up to Norway.

  9. #29
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    To answer DJ's question there is no separation of Scottish and English waters as far as oil & gas revenue is concerned. (I guess there must be for rule of law but I haven't looked into this.)
    This was my impression as well - I've been on many fields in the UK sector (north and central, ie. what you would expect 'scottish' and 'english'), seen hundreds of maps, and I've never even heard of a Scottish/English border as far as fields are concerned.

    FWIW here's the map of the blocks on offer for exploration as part of the 13th licensing round in the UK - including onshore acreage - and it doesn't show the border at all, even onshore. If there really was a difference between Scotland / England, you would expect to at least see the border in the way the blocks are cut.

  10. #30
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    just found the offshore map for the Central NS - no trace of border either.

    Compare it with the Southern NS map and Ireland sea map - where the border with NL and Ireland is clearly shown.

  11. #31
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    just found the offshore map for the Central NS - no trace of border either.

    Compare it with the Southern NS map and Ireland sea map - where the border with NL and Ireland is clearly shown.
    The line was a kind of joke (if you read the link) so would my re-drawing of it

    As Ireland is a seperate country id expect to see a real border line

    Everyone knows if Scotland went down the Independence route we would keep all the oil anyway

  12. #32
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    The line was a kind of joke (if you read the link) so would my re-drawing of it
    I know, but it suddendly interested me to find out more about it since I had never seen that border on any field map. (and for once I can do forum stuff and pretend it's work related )

    There is one obviously (see here) but I got to wonder how much purpose it had, in fact

    Obviously there are different regulatory bodies in Scotland vs England, so it's useful from an administration purpose, but apart from that ? Do the revenues go straight into some sort of common UK 'pot' ?

  13. #33
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Everyone knows if Scotland went down the Independence route we would keep all the oil anyway
    I wouldn't worry about it, it'll all be gone in a few years anyway.

    But, far more importantly, would we keep Berwick?

  14. #34
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Obviously there are different regulatory bodies in Scotland vs England, so it's useful from an administration purpose, but apart from that ? Do the revenues go straight into some sort of common UK 'pot' ?
    Most tax revenues go straight to the UK pot, yes - not surprisingly, the Treasury isn't too keen on giving significant financial control to any other body. That includes oil revenues.

    Personally, I think that this is a rubbish situation - I'd much rather see more local revenue be spent by local authorities. It's exactly the same with local councils - most of their financing comes from central government, which just makes local councils a joke.

    And Scotland should be able to finance itself, using local revenue - it shouldn't need to come begging each year for a handout from Westminster, that benefits no-one.

    But if two Scottish Chancellors in succession won't do that, what chance is there, short of independence?

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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    And Scotland should be able to finance itself, using local revenue - it shouldn't need to come begging each year for a handout from Westminster, that benefits no-one.

    But if two Scottish Chancellors in succession won't do that, what chance is there, short of independence?
    this might be why they don't do it...

  16. #36
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    There is one obviously (see here) but I got to wonder how much purpose it had, in fact
    Interesting find. The line at Berwick in this map curves down much lower than the straight line in the map FirstMove posted a link to. Look's like we've just gained billions of dollars in (virtual) oil revenue!
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. Steve Martin, LA Story

  17. #37
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I wouldn't worry about it, it'll all be gone in a few years anyway.

    But, far more importantly, would we keep Berwick?
    Sorry i answered 'where the f*** is Berwick a while back'

    yes oil long term lease sounds good hand it back in 50yrs so they have clean up costs

    I can sleep soundly at night now

  18. #38
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Interesting find. The line at Berwick in this map curves down much lower than the straight line in the map FirstMove posted a link to. Look's like we've just gained billions of dollars in (virtual) oil revenue!
    Which is why Berwick is worth its weight in oil

  19. #39
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post


    The English line appears to drift 300 miles north and includes the Brent oil fields before linking up to Norway.
    Back to Finchley again.


    Margaret Thatcher did a lot of tampering with county boundaries to boost her election chances.

    You've got people living in West Yorkshire who persist on giving their address as Lancashire instead.

    Also people in Humberside who persist in giving their address as East Riding, North Yorkshire. (letters still make it through)


    John Major, had the Scottish Stone taken out of Westminster Abbey and sent back to Scotland in the 1990's - forgot the year.

    Quite right too. And Scotland HAS prospered since getting their stone back.

    And yes, London is building thousands of new homes on a flood plain in Kent. Go figure.
    Old Mother Shipton predicted that fish would swim in the street of London.

    Hey sorry folks, getting carried away here.......

  20. #40
    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Re: Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Does the Scottish government have jurisdiction over any of the North Sea? Or any seas, in fact? I wasn't aware that it did - can you provide a source for that opinion?
    OK, I know Wikipedia isn't totally reliable, but the summary it gives at Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is useful as it sets out the legal framework for how the seas are divided for legal purposes between England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. (I guess there's maybe something similar for dividing the Irish Sea between England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Eire)

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    And a good thing too, you lot'd only waste it on overpriced buildings...
    Actually, it was the Scottish Office (ie part of the UK Government) that really ballsed up the Parliament building costs.

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