Who wants Berwick-upon-Tweed?

[David Bailey]

Christine "I'm a troublemaker who has nothing better to do" Grahame has proposed a motion that Berwick-upon-Tweed be brought into Scotland:
Berwick thinks it's time to change sides ... again - Times Online

So, do you want it?

I like this bit from the article:

One aspect of border change that does not appear to have been considered is that if Berwick were granted Scottish benefits, Alnwick would want it next, then Newcastle upon Tyne. The Scottish Border could end up somewhere in the Isle of Wight.

[dep]

Christine "I'm a troublemaker who has nothing better to do" Grahame has proposed a motion that Berwick-upon-Tweed be brought into Scotland:
Berwick thinks it's time to change sides ... again - Times Online

So, do you want it?

I like this bit from the article:...................The Scottish Border could end up somewhere in the Isle of Wight.

that's where it belongs.
London would not be the Capital and the South and South East would not attract the almost incalculably large subsidies that arise from all the government departments that are down there.
Better would be the smaller impact that the flooding of London, which will eventually happen, will have on the Scottish economy. Imagine a New Orleans affecting 30% of the population and the seat of government and finance and and and.

The sooner all the flood plains are depopulated or all residences and strategic facilities are hardened against flooding the better. Hardened=very cheap and quick recovery to full, safe/healthy re-occupation or better.
Flood plains= highest water level for a 1 in 50 year flood level for existing buildings, 1 in 200year flood level for all new building. This standard of flood recovery hardening could be applied NOW for ALL new build.

[Barry Shnikov]

Now that's what I call hijacking a thread.

From 'should Berwick be in Scotland' to the floods in New Orleans in a few pithy sentences. Attaboy!

[dep]

Barry,
if you approve of the logic or the sentiment, oh heck, approve of anything in the post then increase my reputation counter. I'm struggling on that account and beginning to think no one is listening. Have I worn you out, already?

That provocative post must have wakened a few up, or stunned you into silence.

[ducasi]

Berwick is a Scottish town, and belongs in Scotland. The people of Berwick seem to agree.

I don't think the same could be said for anywhere else that's currently part of England.

[David Bailey]

Berwick is a Scottish town, and belongs in Scotland. The people of Berwick seem to agree.

You can take our Tweed, but you'll never take our, er, something else that's not very important...

I don't think the same could be said for anywhere else that's currently part of England.

Oh, I dunno - no student fees, free care for the elderly, Ceroc Scotland... I'd vote for Finchley to join it

I mean, OK, the politicos are dirty, but then so's Ken, so no difference there.

Hmmm, just looked it up (Berwick, not Finchley ). Blimey, it's tiny, 11,000 people. That's, like, less people in the average Sainsbury's over here; hell, there are probably more people in my street. I thought it was a big place for some reason.

[David Bailey]

{ some stuff, I think water was involved or something, but I couln't swear to it }

Errr, OK then.

Maybe a tiny bit off-topic?

[Barry Shnikov]

Barry,
if you approve of the logic or the sentiment, oh heck, approve of anything in the post then increase my reputation counter. I'm struggling on that account and beginning to think no one is listening. Have I worn you out, already?

That provocative post must have wakened a few up, or stunned you into silence.

Oh no, a rep tart!

I will rep people who make interesting points, or funny points, or good arguments. At the moment - and, let's face it, it's early days - you didn't make it into those categories.

[FirstMove]

Berwick may be small, but it comes with lashings of oil and gas rights. Can England do a swap for the sovereignty of the submarine bases, associated nuclear facilities and free passage between them?

[David Bailey]

Berwick may be small, but it comes with lashings of oil and gas rights.

Does it? How come?

Can England do a swap for the sovereignty of the submarine bases, associated nuclear facilities and free passage between them?

Yeah, OK then.

What on Earth are you on about?

Do you seriously think this isn't a massively dumb stunt? It reminds me of the nuclear-free zones the Loony Left councils in the 1980s...

[John S]

It is of course all part of Franck Pauly's plot for UK domination, by extending the Ceroc Scotland franchise area.

Berwick has always been an anomaly, as its true hinterland lies in Scotland (Berwickshire) and the main part of the town is on the northern (Scottish) side of the Tweed. It is only "English" by conquest, albeit several hundred years ago! Admittedly, since English local authority reorganisation, a large chunk of what is now called the Borough of Berwick-on-Tweed is clearly in "English" territory.

This whole issue, although probably a bit of a joke for most people, does raise the moral question of self-determination. If by some means (eg referendum) it can be shown that the settled will of the people of Berwick is to re-join Scotland, would that necessarily be wrong (whatever the motivation, and whatever the legal problems)?

On the face of it, there doesn't seem much difference from Monmouthshire, which became part of Wales in 1974 after a long period of ambiguity (admittedly the legal differences would be greater for an England-Scotland transfer).

And of course (on a much bigger and much more dangerous scale) Kosovo will be recognised as independent this weekend by most "Western" countries, despite being carved out of an unwilling Serbia - cue a move by the local Serb population to carve themselves out of Kosovo and be reunited with Serbia.

[John S]

Berwick may be small, but it comes with lashings of oil and gas rights.

Does it? How come?

I guess FM means that because the UK sector of the North Sea is (for legal purposes, and for oil & gas rights) divided between the Scottish and English "sectors", pushing the Scottish border a few miles south might change this a little. However, the sector boundary is drawn at 55 degrees north, and as Berwick town itself is at 55.78 degrees there probably wouldn't be much difference.

Anyway, at present the oil and gas revenues flow to the UK exchequer whichever sector it comes from.

[David Bailey]

This whole issue, although probably a bit of a joke for most people, does raise the moral question of self-determination. If by some means (eg referendum) it can be shown that the settled will of the people of Berwick is to re-join Scotland, would that necessarily be wrong (whatever the motivation, and whatever the legal problems)?

Yes.

Towns, or other arbitrarily-decided urban boundaries, don't get to decide which country they want to be in. If they did, what would happen if a Scottish town decided to declare independence from Scotland? The Orkneys have a good case, for example... but then what happens if a street within that town decides to declare independence from that town? We're beyond Passport To Pimlico levels of farce then.

I'm not aware of any formal statement, but based on their actions in creating such bodies, I think that the Westminster government has pretty much recognised that "national identity" exists - hence the Scottish government/executive, the Welsh Assembly and so on. And if the majority of the population in N.I. ever wanted to declare independence or merge with the Republic, it's highly likely that the UK government would let them.

But I can't ever see this sort of recognition extended further down than that - so I reckon the Cornish National Liberation Army are out of luck.

[David Bailey]

Anyway, at present the oil and gas revenues flow to the UK exchequer whichever sector it comes from.

And a good thing too, you lot'd only waste it on overpriced buildings...

Actually, seriously, it does seem kind of inefficient that the revenue goes to Whitehall, gets processed and moved around, and then gets sent straight back in subsidies and direct grants. It would seem much more straightforward to give the revenue directly to Scotland in the first place; if nothing else, it's much more efficient and transparent.

[FirstMove]

Look at this map, showing how an England/Scotland split of the oilfields would occur (granted there are a few competing ways to work this out). Now imagine what happens if you switch ownership of Berwick. Billions of pounds of dowry.

[stewart38]

And a good thing too, you lot'd only waste it on overpriced buildings...

Actually, seriously, it does seem kind of inefficient that the revenue goes to Whitehall, gets processed and moved around, and then gets sent straight back in subsidies and direct grants. It would seem much more straightforward to give the revenue directly to Scotland in the first place; if nothing else, it's much more efficient and transparent.

I think England gives £13 billion in subsidies to Scotland so yes move the border to the Isle of white and have free health care for all the elderly free tution fees free pertrol for the over 43s etc

I like this bit

------------------
When Queen Victoria declared war on Russia in 1853 she did so in the name of Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British Dominions beyond the sea. As Berwick was not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris in 1856, it was technically still at war until a peace treaty was signed by the mayor and a Soviet diplomat in 1966
---------------------------------------

[dep]

Look at this map, showing how an England/Scotland split of the oilfields would occur (granted there are a few competing ways to work this out). Now imagine what happens if you switch ownership of Berwick. Billions of pounds of dowry.

and note the angle drawn across to Norway. It was deliberately fiddled (by the UK government) to remove much of the North Sea from Scottish jurisdiction.
The correct angle would take the line down below the h of Arbroath.

[FirstMove]

Many Scots seem to think it should run East-West

[David Bailey]

I think England gives £13 billion in subsidies to Scotland so yes move the border to the Isle of white and have free health care for all the elderly free tution fees free pertrol for the over 43s etc

Over 41s is better, but otherwise, sounds good to me

I like this bit

------------------
When Queen Victoria declared war on Russia in 1853 she did so in the name of Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and the British Dominions beyond the sea. As Berwick was not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris in 1856, it was technically still at war until a peace treaty was signed by the mayor and a Soviet diplomat in 1966
---------------------------------------

I think that the "state of war" thing is an urban myth - from here:

Nevertheless, in 1966 a Soviet official waited upon the Mayor of Berwick, Councillor Robert Knox, and a peace treaty was formally signed. Mr Knox is reputed to have said "Please tell the Russian people that they can sleep peacefully in their beds." To complicate the issue, some have noted that Knox did not have any authority with regard to foreign relations, and thus may have exceeded his powers as mayor in concluding a peace treaty. The whole curious scenario was the focus of a question on the third series of the gameshow QI.

[David Bailey]

and note the angle drawn across to Norway. It was deliberately fiddled (by the UK government) to remove much of the North Sea from Scottish jurisdiction.

Does the Scottish government have jurisdiction over any of the North Sea? Or any seas, in fact? I wasn't aware that it did - can you provide a source for that opinion?

The correct angle would take the line down below the h of Arbroath.

"Correct" being defined as? Again, a cite would help...