What would ruin a dance for you?

[~*~Saligal~*~]

Oh yeah...that old chestnut. Absolutely hilarious and us followers just love it when you try and catch us out.

There are so many things that make a rubbish dance, but these are the ones that really make my blood boil.

1. Stinkers - How difficult is it to remember the golden rules...shower, deodorant and clean clothes.

2. No eye contract - Oh yes...that makes me feel really special. I'm not Medusa for crying out loud.

3. No rhythm - Sometimes it feels like your partner has an MP3 player with earphones on, playing a completely different track...and as has already been said, it's not just the beginners.

4. Me, Myself and I - The leads who think the dance is all about them. I find that to be the case with teachers more than any other dancer.

Although I'm not to harsh on the "no eye contact" cos I understand that some people are shyer than others. What I'm not into is when they won't even look in your direction when they dance with you - worse being when they're distracted looking for someone for the next song to dance with! grrr.
Also not into being lead with a heavy hand - particularly being pushed and pulled through a song.

[Trouble]

Pretty much all has been said other than :-
The numpty that doesnt lead a move right - so i go wrong - then he tries to teach me the move in the middle of a dance floor

- or....

classroom teaching from another numpty. Does the move completely wrong and blames it on you. Or, a "well done" pat on the back that ive had at some venues i go to now and then and they dont recognise me as regular.

I smile sweetly of course.

[robd]

- (being slightly picky) people who walk around rather than spinning on one foot as it can somtimes restrict what can be led

Surely it's up to the follow to determine how she makes the turn - stepped or spun - unless you explicitly lead one or the other? What moves do you feel are restricted by 'steppers'?

I agree that those followers who 'step' their turns will often not get around within a count of music leaving you as leader with a tricky job - do you try to force them round in time (I don't) or try to hold for the next count?

It's like trying to make a cake without flour.

I had a delicious flourless chocolate cake once - I think there's quite a few flour free cake recipes around.....

[dep]

One and a half beats for a return and the follower is surprised when I wait for the beat before stepping back or going into the next move.
Who's wrong?

[dep]

I'm still useless at unassisted spins.
I am trying to incorporate the extra turn into my manspin but I have to walk around and my follower has to wait the extra beat. (it's like Hijacking my own move).

I will persist until someone says "Dep, that looks naff"

I will try to perfect a reliable one and a half spin, but until then tolerate me.

[Steven666]

I'm still useless at unassisted spins.
I am trying to incorporate the extra turn into my manspin but I have to walk around and my follower has to wait the extra beat. (it's like Hijacking my own move).

I will persist until someone says "Dep, that looks naff"

I will try to perfect a reliable one and a half spin, but until then tolerate me.

But then you do it to be told that it's vicious. Just propel yourself and hope for the best. You don't fall over (often)...

[dep]

When my outstretched hand misses the target by half a metre and I'm listing like a stricken ferry, I don't need to be told it looks naff.

I have never fallen over, yet, but I will practice until even that bit comes good.

[geoff332]

Surely it's up to the follow to determine how she makes the turn - stepped or spun - unless you explicitly lead one or the other? What moves do you feel are restricted by 'steppers'?

Absolutely not: this is basic technique. As far as I'm concerned every intermediate dancer should be able to do an unassisted spot-turn. Preferably a double. And this applies to leads and follows. Then, when they have a lead, they can suddenly handle double and triple speed spins.

If a follow is stepping, then the lead is limited in the variations they can throw in to a turn (over-turned, double spins, faster or slower spins to emphasise the timing etc, etc). Varying the turn can give you some interesting new combinations of turns all of which are eliminated by someone who tries to step through a turn. If a lead steps their turns, then they are likely to travel and most likely slow. This makes most moves involving a lead spinning tricky to make work.

I agree that those followers who 'step' their turns will often not get around within a count of music leaving you as leader with a tricky job - do you try to force them round in time (I don't) or try to hold for the next count?

The second big issue is that when you step, you travel (you have to, because you are moving your centre of gravity). Travelling is appropriate in some turns and not others - and should be dictated by the lead, not by the follow's technique. Even in most travelling turns, you still do the turn on one foot.

The third big problem is if someone stepping a turn, you cannot be sure which foot they will end the turn on. Again, this potential to be wrong-footed limits the options at the end of the turn. At worst, you have to put an extra step in, at worst, you have that ugly little shuffle or simply step off entirely the wrong foot.

What probably annoys me most is this seems to be an endemic problem in ceroc and it is really, really easy to fix: practice. If you took a minute or two to do a short drill in at the start of each class you would have every one able to do a single spin within 6 classes and most people able to do doubles within a few months. Throw in a couple of other things to the drill and you can also cover timing, travelling turns and basic co-ordination. Five minutes a week to put in place all the building blocks for MJ...

[Steven666]

One and a half beats for a return and the follower is surprised when I wait for the beat before stepping back or going into the next move.
Who's wrong?

The follower for not turning on one foot over one beat and ending half a beat or so out (as I stated in the OP).

The step back takes one beat so turning for one and a half beats just throws things of balance. But I usually compensate by ajusting my position so the follower doesn't have to do a full turn, (say three quarters).

[Twirly]

Surely it's up to the follow to determine how she makes the turn - stepped or spun - unless you explicitly lead one or the other?

Mostly I spin on one foot, but quite often I'll be put off-balance by the lead, and although I'll start off on one foot, half way round I feel that my balance isn't quite right and have to abort, sort of end up doing two half-spins, or stepping all the way if it's really bad. I find this particularly with leads who are quite forceful in their lead (and it's even worse if they're very much shorter than me). So I don't think you can totally blame the follower.

Any other follows find this?

And on the odd blissful occasion when my lead and I are in perfect balance, I've actually found myself being returned with no effort on my part at all - they just seem to turn me on my axis. It's a very odd feeling, and only ever happens with very light leads. But very nice when it does happen Again, anyone else had this?

[Lory]

Surely it's up to the follow to determine how she makes the turn - stepped or spun - unless you explicitly lead one or the other? What moves do you feel are restricted by 'steppers'?

Well, yes and no.. if its an assisted spin, (followers hand held above their head) trying to get the girl to spin on one foot, the lead has to be quite expert in keeping the followed 'centered'. Its impossible to spin on one foot if your off your axis!

And believe me, when they get it right, we can spin like a top!

[Lory]

Any other follows find this?

Absolutely!

I didn't see this post, till after i'd posted mine! and i think they pretty much say the same thing!

[geoff332]

Well, yes and no.. if its an assisted spin, (followers hand held above their head) trying to get the girl to spin on one foot, the lead has to be quite expert in keeping the followed 'centered'. Its impossible to spin on one foot if your off your axis!

And believe me, when they get it right, we can spin like a top!

In my book, any spin where one partner provides power for the spin to the other is an assisted spin. All have one principal in common: deliver the power for the spin with-out pulling your partner off balance. It's a two-way street...

The lead has to do their job without dragging their partner around. More technically, you are providing power in a way that can be turned into rotational force. If it's a free spin (eg a ceroc spin), this means you need to spin along the plane of the turn and not pull away from the axis before you release. For the return you're talking about, I was taught that you draw a small halo over your partner's head - about six inches from their forehead. As you say, the trick is to provide a nice rotational lead around the follow's axis. Again, it takes practice and should be taught explicitly.

The follow's job is to spin on the spot (ie not to travel unless led), to provide tension for the lead to work with. In a free spin, I was always taught that the follow spins as many times as they can. They should finish in a single beat and the lead should offer the hand for the follow to take when they're done. But the decision on when to stop and most of the work in arresting the spin is the follow's choice.

In reality, of course, both people dancing will often get it a little wrong. Then you have to compensate and adjust and do all that nice partnery stuff. But the objective should be to get it right every time.

[dep]

And on the odd blissful occasion when my lead and I are in perfect balance, I've actually found myself being returned with no effort on my part at all - they just seem to turn me on my axis. It's a very odd feeling, and only ever happens with very light leads. But very nice when it does happen Again, anyone else had this?

and the big grin I get from my follower when she realises she's completed a double spin and thinks to herself "but, I can't do double spins"
I agree on the light touch. So much more information flows between the partners when arms and hands are very relaxed.

[kiwi_clay]

I would say the one thing that above all else that ruins a dance for me is not dancing..
esp when you have specifically waited for a particular person who promised you the next dance

[Gadget]

Stopping.

[Caro]

(advice about spinning) Just propel yourself and hope for the best. You don't fall over (often)...

You wouldn't have been taking lessons with Lee, by any chance ?

[StokeBloke]

Over crowded floor. Especially when the other dancers don't have the best floor craft in the world. I hate to have too much of my focus forcibly taken away from my partner to keep us safe. It reduces the amount of connection that we have and can ruin what may be another wise great dance

Also crap music. If you agree to a second dance BEFORE the next track starts (this is easy if the last track you danced to has a long slow fade out) you may find yourself dancing to some tripe like "Now That I Can Dance". Trying to lead whilst your ears are bleeding is less than enjoyable

[stewart38]

Later poster so

All of the above, plus

Heart attack me or her
Epileptic fit me or her

[Lee Bartholomew]

You wouldn't have been taking lessons with Lee, by any chance ?

I'll have him taking people out in no time