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Thread: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

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    Registered User SteveK's Avatar
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    Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    I see that the Government is considering putting fluoride into drinking water. I can't see what the fuss is about. When doing my Water Resources M.Sc. I remember attending a talk by one of the lecturers from the uni Dental School comparing the dental health of kids from Birmingham and Manchester. Similar levels of social deprivation, but the kids from Birmingham had much much better teeth.

    BBC NEWS | Health | Ministers launch fluoride drive

    People seem happy with Folic Acid being added to bread flour, so what's the big deal. I'm ashamed that it hasn't been done earlier; the only reason is that the water supply Plcs are worried about being sued, and the government is too spineless to guarantee that this won't happen. Or is "Mass Medication" a bad idea, and kids should just learn to clean their teeth properly?
    Last edited by SteveK; 6th-February-2008 at 03:43 AM. Reason: Can't spell flour

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    Re: Mass medication - flouride in drinking water

    Omigod! Don't you know that fluoride causes low sperm counts in people who have a low-sperm-count susceptibility to fluoride? Most people dismiss the claim but they forget that some people are uniquely sensitive to fluorine - you know, like the people who are uniquely sensitive to EM waves and get spinal tingling when they're within 100 feet of a radio tower? - and this is an extremely important subject, we should do £gajillions of research first, just in case...

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    Re: Mass medication - flouride in drinking water

    To the anonymous (to me) repper:

    What a nice thing to say!! Thank you.

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    I mind. First of all, although the Manchester to Birmingham comparison is often quoted, it's not a controlled scientific test between the two and as far as I've heard, can't say that fluoride is the 'cause' of improved dental health in kids - it could be other factors.

    Second, if I want to take medication, I'll take it - and not because the government is forcing it down my throat, literally - and I'm paying for it.

    Thirdly, I can understand the government wanting to improve dental health & this must be a dream come true at its cost & ease of delivery. However, if this is aimed at children in families where they are not cleaning their teeth (possibly with a fluoride toothpaste) and avoiding fizzy drinks, then I wouldn't have thought they would be drinking much water, so how exactly are the children this is aimed at going to receive what they are meant to? And how do you get the doseage right to cater for people drinking more than two litres a day compared to perhaps a glass or so?

    As Janey Lee Grace was saying on BBC TV breakfast yesterday 'what if we banned fizzy drinks?'. Although she wasn't being completely serious, it was simply to emphasise that there are other ways of approaching this issue. Could it be time for a return to the 'free milk' style school allocation, but this time of fluoridated water to children where parents had agreed to them receiving it?

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    Registered User SteveK's Avatar
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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    I mind. First of all, although the Manchester to Birmingham comparison is often quoted, it's not a controlled scientific test between the two and as far as I've heard, can't say that fluoride is the 'cause' of improved dental health in kids - it could be other factors.
    It could be argued that this is actually much better than a scientific test, in that rather than just monitoring say 100 kids, they are monitoring the health of many thousands of kids. What other factor do you think are likely - I'm inclined to think that the only obvious explanation is that fluoride improves dental hygene, especially for kids from socially deprived areas.

    Thirdly, I can understand the government wanting to improve dental health & this must be a dream come true at its cost & ease of delivery. However, if this is aimed at children in families where they are not cleaning their teeth (possibly with a fluoride toothpaste) and avoiding fizzy drinks, then I wouldn't have thought they would be drinking much water, so how exactly are the children this is aimed at going to receive what they are meant to? And how do you get the doseage right to cater for people drinking more than two litres a day compared to perhaps a glass or so?
    If people are only drinking perhaps a glass or so of water a day, future kidney problems as well as poor teeth are problem to look forward to!

    I'm pretty sure that domestic water filters don't remove dissolved flouride ions from water, so using a "Brita" style jug filter is a waste of time. The beauty about flouridating water is that all water supplied by water companies will be filtered (including cans of coke etc). Quite a few of the UK breweries take their water from the domestic water mains, so you can pretend that drinking a can of beer is good for your teeth

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    Registered User SteveK's Avatar
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    Re: Mass medication - flouride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    To the anonymous (to me) repper:

    What a nice thing to say!! Thank you.
    Why don't you become a member, and then you get to see who reps you??

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    Second, if I want to take medication, I'll take it - and not because the government is forcing it down my throat, literally - and I'm paying for it.
    It was being discussed on the news last night, and someone made the point that forcing medication on people is actually illegal (violation of human rights). The government also said "No-one would be forced" - but I can't see that being realistic.

    What are you going to do, put extra taps in each household to allow people to choose? Or are you going to allow everyone a veto on whether fluoridation gets done in their local area?

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    It could be argued that this is actually much better than a scientific test, in that rather than just monitoring say 100 kids, they are monitoring the health of many thousands of kids. What other factor do you think are likely - I'm inclined to think that the only obvious explanation is that fluoride improves dental hygene, especially for kids from socially deprived areas.
    It could be any number of things: more dentists, improved school meals, dental information campaigns ... and I would ask if the results are statistically significant, rather than, 'um, better'.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    If people are only drinking perhaps a glass or so of water a day, future kidney problems as well as poor teeth are problem to look forward to!
    Yes, but the point the government is making is that it needs to 'nanny' those children who are in homes where health & a good diet isn't good, so this is probably lower on the list of priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    I'm pretty sure that domestic water filters don't remove dissolved flouride ions from water, so using a "Brita" style jug filter is a waste of time. The beauty about flouridating water is that all water supplied by water companies will be filtered (including cans of coke etc). Quite a few of the UK breweries take their water from the domestic water mains, so you can pretend that drinking a can of beer is good for your teeth
    So are you saying that if UK water companies are adding fluoride to the water, they automatically will filter the water? If so, why? (On a personal level, reading the words 'beauty' and 'fluoride' in the same sentence gives me cold shudders).

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    Re: Mass medication - flouride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    Why don't you become a member, and then you get to see who reps you??
    £££££££££££

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    It could be any number of things: more dentists, improved school meals, dental information campaigns ... and I would ask if the results are statistically significant, rather than, 'um, better'.

    Yes, but the point the government is making is that it needs to 'nanny' those children who are in homes where health & a good diet isn't good, so this is probably lower on the list of priorities.

    So are you saying that if UK water companies are adding fluoride to the water, they automatically will filter the water? If so, why? (On a personal level, reading the words 'beauty' and 'fluoride' in the same sentence gives me cold shudders).
    Um...all water companies filter the water. Otherwise, it wouldn't be any good for drinking. You know, I presume, where the water actually comes from?

    What is the problem you have with flouridation? You don't want fluoridation, that's clear, and so you don't want the government to introduce it. But what is your objection to fluoridation? Do you also believe that it does not improve dental health?

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    Registered User Feelingpink's Avatar
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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Um...all water companies filter the water. Otherwise, it wouldn't be any good for drinking. You know, I presume, where the water actually comes from?

    What is the problem you have with flouridation? You don't want fluoridation, that's clear, and so you don't want the government to introduce it. But what is your objection to fluoridation? Do you also believe that it does not improve dental health?
    Thanks for the sarcasm ... from Steve's post, I interpreted it as appearing that filtering was linked to adding fluoride, hence my question.

    I don't want fluoridation because:
    1. I don't like having my human rights violated
    2. I don't want to ingest a random amount of a substance that I know little about (nor am I advocating a huge research programme). Just simply don't like the big brother approach.

    As for improving dental health, it quite possibly does, but that doesn't make water fluoridation for everyone right.

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    I see that the Government is considering putting fluoride into drinking water.
    As someone who grew up with fluoridated water (and I'm 40 years old), I am amazed to learn that the UK is so primitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    I mind. First of all, although the Manchester to Birmingham comparison is often quoted, it's not a controlled scientific test between the two and as far as I've heard, can't say that fluoride is the 'cause' of improved dental health in kids - it could be other factors.
    So what are the differences between the two places?
    I'm in Australia, where large distances are the norm. From here, Manchester and Birmingham are so close on the map as to be indistinguishable. Yet you claim there are differences between them that might affect dental health. I'm not saying there are no such differences; I am simply saying that in Australia, two towns so close together would be very similar, so I would like more information than "other factors" to describe the differences between the two towns.
    I've not read the study report, but it is unlikely that such a study could ever say that fluoridated water "caused" fewer dental problems. It could only say there was an association. But if there are no other differences [and you're about to give me a list of the other differences] or no other differences that are so strongly associated with the dental improvement, then it is reasonable to conclude the fluoridation was a cause (directly or indirectly) of the dental improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    What are you going to do, put extra taps in each household to allow people to choose? Or are you going to allow everyone a veto on whether fluoridation gets done in their local area?
    You don't have to drink out of the tap.
    Does the UK not have a large market in bottled water? Perhaps you should start investing in water bottling companies.

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    1. I don't like having my human rights violated
    And you're still living in the UK?

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    I'm pretty sure that domestic water filters don't remove dissolved flouride ions from water, so using a "Brita" style jug filter is a waste of time. The beauty about flouridating water is that all water supplied by water companies will be filtered (including cans of coke etc). Quite a few of the UK breweries take their water from the domestic water mains, so you can pretend that drinking a can of beer is good for your teeth
    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    So are you saying that if UK water companies are adding fluoride to the water, they automatically will filter the water? If so, why? (On a personal level, reading the words 'beauty' and 'fluoride' in the same sentence gives me cold shudders).
    Apologies - please substitute the word "flouridated" with the word "filtered" in the above sentence. What I was trying to say that even if people are drinking cans of fizzy/beer, they'll still get the benefit of the flouride.

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    I'm in Australia, where large distances are the norm. From here, Manchester and Birmingham are so close on the map as to be indistinguishable. Yet you claim there are differences between them that might affect dental health. I'm not saying there are no such differences; I am simply saying that in Australia, two towns so close together would be very similar, so I would like more information than "other factors" to describe the differences between the two towns.
    Interesting point.

    Yes, Birmingham and Manchester are very different. Everywhere in the UK is close (relatively) to everywhere else, but there's still a lot of differences in culture. There are a lot of differences in culture between different areas in London, for that matter.

    Admittedly, I don't know what significant differences there are between them - from the point of view of a Londoner, everywhere else looks the same - but it's quite possible there are such differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    You don't have to drink out of the tap.
    Does the UK not have a large market in bottled water? Perhaps you should start investing in water bottling companies.
    Oh, I'm not really bothered to be honest - although I pay water rates to have clean, drinkable water come out of the tap.

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by Feelingpink View Post
    Thanks for the sarcasm ... from Steve's post, I interpreted it as appearing that filtering was linked to adding fluoride, hence my question.

    I don't want fluoridation because:
    1. I don't like having my human rights violated
    2. I don't want to ingest a random amount of a substance that I know little about (nor am I advocating a huge research programme). Just simply don't like the big brother approach.

    As for improving dental health, it quite possibly does, but that doesn't make water fluoridation for everyone right.
    Are you aware of all the vitamins/folic acid etc. that gets added to your cornflakes in the morning. There're substances that I know little about; do you refuse to eat cornflakes or mass produced bread?

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    You don't have to drink out of the tap.
    Does the UK not have a large market in bottled water? Perhaps you should start investing in water bottling companies.
    I used to be seconded into Thames Water working on the clean water trunk networks. I'm always a bit wary of bottled water - it's tested nowhere near as comprehensively as tap water, and I'd be wary about it from a bacterialogical viewpoint.

    (Incidentally Thames Water tap water beats most bottled water in blind taste tests - a clever trick is to leave your tap water in the fridge in an open jug for an hour or so, and any chlorine taste will disappear. It'll then taste nicer than water that has been passed through a Brita type water filter).

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Oh, I'm not really bothered to be honest - although I pay water rates to have clean, drinkable water come out of the tap.
    And I hope you get this!!

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    Are you aware of all the vitamins/folic acid etc. that gets added to your cornflakes in the morning. There're substances that I know little about; do you refuse to eat cornflakes or mass produced bread?
    Sure - but the point is, you have a choice about that sort of thing. The Government doesn't decree you must eat cornflakes or whatever.

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    Are you aware of all the vitamins/folic acid etc. that gets added to your cornflakes in the morning. There're substances that I know little about; do you refuse to eat cornflakes or mass produced bread?
    I am and I do refuse.

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    Re: Mass medication - fluoride in drinking water

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Sure - but the point is, you have a choice about that sort of thing. The Government doesn't decree you must eat cornflakes or whatever.
    I'm not sure about this. You have a choice whether to eat packet Sunblest bread (with added Folic Acid) or to use your own organic flour (without added Folic Acid).

    You have a choice whether to drink bottled water (no flouride unless it naturally occurs in the water) or tap water (with added flouride).

    (Hey I'm an engineer, not a philosopher, so please accept my apologies if my logic is incorrect).

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