View Poll Results: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

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  • Leaders – I love being hijacked on every move I lead

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I like being hijacked but not excessively

    8 25.81%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack keeps me on my toes

    4 12.90%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack slightly annoys me

    0 0%
  • Leaders – Constant hijacking is annoying

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I hate being hijacked on every move I lead

    1 3.23%
  • Leaders – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
  • Followers - I love hijacking on every move

    0 0%
  • Followers – I like to hijacking moves occasionally

    12 38.71%
  • Followers – I never hijack as I don’t like to

    2 6.45%
  • Followers – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
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Thread: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

  1. #81
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    So how do you define "deliberate alteration"?
    When the follower knows full well what the leader is intending then that changing it by purposefully not following any possibility shown by the lead

    Or something like that. Definitions like this are not neccessary and detract from a little thing called "using a bit a nous".

  2. #82
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    "using a bit a nous"

  3. #83
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Excuses, or real problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    Sorry if I'm quoting you out of context ~snip~ On your rule, she would never, ever be able to do dips and drops -- but she likes them. Why shouldn't she be able to refuse to do them with most people
    Sorry, yeah, I think you have got it slightly wrong.. of course its up to her and she can do/say what she likes.. what I meant was, she shouldn't 'need' to have an excuse or explanation, as to why she doesn't want to do them with 'certain' leads but like to do them with others!

    If she genuinely has a bad back (poor thing) then of course, its a good idea to let the lead know.. what I was against was someone having to make up a lie about having a bad back, in order to prevent a lead forcing a drop on her.
    Last edited by Lory; 8th-February-2008 at 03:49 PM.
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  4. #84
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    When the follower knows full well what the leader is intending then that changing it by purposefully not following any possibility shown by the lead

    Or something like that. Definitions like this are not neccessary and detract from a little thing called "using a bit a nous".
    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    For Caro - nous is slang for common sense

    Steven - how do you know that the follow knows what the leader intended? Are you a mind-reader? And isn't MJ supposed to be a male lead (which has been interpreted on here as the lead inviting the follow to do certain things) not a male forced dance?

    So what if you've "invited" the follow to do something she doesn't like or feel comfortable with? Is the poor thing just supposed to put up with it? I guess that for the duration of one dance it might be OK, but chances are that she won't want to dance with you again if she doesn't like certain of your moves.

    And this works both ways - if you dance with a follow who sabotages in a way you don't like - just avoid her!

    I would hope that any sabotage/hijacking would be done in a way that is safe and hopefully playfull, but not all of us are perfect (well, not all the time anyway )

  5. #85
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    For Caro - nous is slang for common sense
    ha cheers Twirly, had no idea

  6. #86
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    a) Walking the dog?
    b) Lining the church roof?
    c) Chinese toy paint?

    I don't know, possibly an inside turn into closed hold across the body type of thing. Clearly these ladies, who are all IMO good, competent follows (well, one exception has just sprung to mind) thought it was a lead for a dip/drop but I am not sure why other than anticipation as I didn't adjust my height or, as far as I am aware, their height as part of the lead.

    I've had it happen before so I will see if I can remember what I did next time it happens.
    Same thing has happened to me on occasion, when I lead into a ballroom hold from an inside turn - some women mistake this for the beginning of a seducer and start turning themselves anticlockwise and head for the floor.

  7. #87
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    a) Walking the dog?
    b) Lining the church roof?
    c) Chinese toy paint?
    Boy, there's no end of fun in that one is there?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I don't know, possibly an inside turn into closed hold across the body type of thing. Clearly these ladies, who are all IMO good, competent follows (well, one exception has just sprung to mind) thought it was a lead for a dip/drop but I am not sure why other than anticipation as I didn't adjust my height or, as far as I am aware, their height as part of the lead.

    I've had it happen before so I will see if I can remember what I did next time it happens.
    The reason I asked, is that I've had this happen to me when leading West Manhattans / Columbians. If it's that sort of thing, there's some good hints here:
    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/i...part-12-a.html

  8. #88
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Steven - how do you know that the follow knows what the leader intended? Are you a mind-reader? And isn't MJ supposed to be a male lead (which has been interpreted on here as the lead inviting the follow to do certain things) not a male forced dance?
    True. It's not forced. But for some too much resistence/refusing to do as intended can get annoying. Some is OK but too much is a no for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    So what if you've "invited" the follow to do something she doesn't like or feel comfortable with? Is the poor thing just supposed to put up with it? I guess that for the duration of one dance it might be OK, but chances are that she won't want to dance with you again if she doesn't like certain of your moves.
    I'm new at following so will dive into anything led atm. But I'll be sure to learn this comfort aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    And this works both ways - if you dance with a follow who sabotages in a way you don't like - just avoid her!
    Aye!

  9. #89
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I had a couple of women at Southport throw themselves at the floor after they confused a certain lead I was giving with one that they recognise for a drop (at least I presume this to be the case - it was the same lead that led (happy, DJ?) to it each time). Maybe it was sabotage and I didn't recognise it !
    Ithink I did that, robd It is a lead that almost always ends in a dip and I thought I felt something move slightly down my back - could have just been your arm brushing my shoulder blade. Apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB View Post
    All this makes you wonder how much is deliberate sabotage, and how much is an ambiguous lead being mis-interpreted.
    Certainly I have been complimented in the past for being able to "save" moves. Where things have gone wrong, I can nearly always turn it into something. This could, however, lead to leads (!) thinking I am hijacking/sabotaging on purpose.

    When I was dancing with TP on Wednesday, he lead a walk across, I followed this but extended into a slide. Is this a sabotage? I did what he led and he didn't not lead a slide He then came back at me with a further slide to extend the whole movement (because, he said he wasn't going to let a woman ........)

  10. #90
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    Cool Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    I think it would be fair to say that if an experienced follow was doing something different to what was being led on almost every move then it's more than just a poor lead causing it.

    I think the point here is one of intent, was this playful or malicious Steven?

    Was it one-up-manship designed to 'put a lead in his place', or a little bit of playful fun that just got out of hand?

    You see there is one particular follow that I dance with who I expect to trash my lead at every opportunity. Hijack, sabotage, steal, bludgeon, alter, twist, develop or otherwise stomp all over the carefully crafted moves I am delicately knitting together to the music that's being played. Each and every dance is a mad a$$ scrabble that leaves me physically and mentally breathless. In fact I often only have enough energy to say "another one?" with a hopeful glint in my eye She's one of my favorite EVER dancers!


    See, when it's good, it's very very good, and when it's bad it's excruciating.

  11. #91
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I'd like to know why you think that, and does it necessarily lead to 666's view below?

    And seperately (since Lee didn't initially say why he thinks that) you assume it's got something to do with the follow's ability to lead or otherwise.
    Yeah, thinking about it I do think it has something to do with ability as well as other things. Most women who lead (not being sexist or anything) are still beginner to average level having spent a majority of their dance life following. I will sabotage a good leader sometimes. Dancing with men is more of a playful thing anyhow and will 9/10 get the crowd watching so a bit of playful showing off is sometimes called for. I will not sabotage a beginner or someone who I dont feel will be able to deal with it.

    A follow that cant lead can sabotage (see below)


    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    And do you both think that avoiding moves the follow doesn't like is sabotage, or the defensive dancing DJ mentioned?
    The follower should never sabotage defensivly. Why? Because the leader shouldn't make them have to. If a leader puts someone in to a drop then they should be happy that the follower is allowing it, but to answer your question...

    When I teach drops, I will always teach a way of the follow avoiding the drop (bending leg and going in to a sitting position norm). I personally beg all MJ teachers to do the same along with explianing why men shouldn't just throw women to the floor.

  12. #92
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    I think it would be fair to say that if an experienced follow was doing something different to what was being led on almost every move then it's more than just a poor lead causing it.

    I think the point here is one of intent, was this playful or malicious Steven?


    Was it one-up-manship designed to 'put a lead in his place', or a little bit of playful fun that just got out of hand?

    You see there is one particular follow that I dance with who I expect to trash my lead at every opportunity. Hijack, sabotage, steal, bludgeon, alter, twist, develop or otherwise stomp all over the carefully crafted moves I am delicately knitting together to the music that's being played. Each and every dance is a mad a$$ scrabble that leaves me physically and mentally breathless. In fact I often only have enough energy to say "another one?" with a hopeful glint in my eye She's one of my favorite EVER dancers!


    See, when it's good, it's very very good, and when it's bad it's excruciating.
    If you lead the same move a hundred times in the exact same way. 99 capable follows follow identically and one capable follow doesn't then is that the leaders fault for not leading or is it a sabotage. The difference between the two is almost always clear.

  13. #93
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    At the end of the day though for us men we know20-30 or so moves and doing them again and again and again gets repetative and boring if every woman followed in exactly the same way.

    If you have a woman that sabotages everymove, think on your feet. Sabotage her sabotage.

  14. #94
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    If you lead the same move a hundred times in the exact same way. 99 capable follows follow identically and one capable follow doesn't then is that the leaders fault for not leading or is it a sabotage. The difference between the two is almost always clear.
    It may be neither poor leading nor sabotage. Maybe the one who does it differently is just a little less conventional, a little more creative?

  15. #95
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    ...... think on your feet. Sabotage her sabotage.

  16. #96
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    At a lesson recently we had the slow comb taught with two wiggles and then the lady pushing the man away with her hand on his chest as part of the move.

    I am quite happy for this to be taught as "sabotage", where the lady does not want to be that close to the guy, but I found that I really did not like it being taught as part of the normal move.

  17. #97
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post

    If you have a woman that sabotages everymove, think on your feet. Sabotage her sabotage.
    Different activity surely ? Isn't that called wrestling ?

  18. #98
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Different activity surely ? Isn't that called wrestling ?
    Only when wearing lycra.

  19. #99
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    So does that beg the question, if the follow can't lead then should they ever sabotage?
    I'd agree that learning to lead helps the follower embellish or alter in a way that requests or demands co-operation from the lead, and learning to follow helps the leader provide that co-operation. However, it's hardly necessary.

    To my mind, the direct approach is more important. The follower should learn to embellish well, and the leader should learn to provide co-operation for those embellishments well. This means doing dance lessons with competent teachers.

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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    At a lesson recently we had the slow comb taught with two wiggles and then the lady pushing the man away with her hand on his chest as part of the move.

    I am quite happy for this to be taught as "sabotage", where the lady does not want to be that close to the guy, but I found that I really did not like it being taught as part of the normal move.
    There are a few close up moves where the follower is taught how to bring them to a conclusion.
    Equality and cooperation. Forget sabotage.

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