View Poll Results: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

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  • Leaders – I love being hijacked on every move I lead

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I like being hijacked but not excessively

    8 25.81%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack keeps me on my toes

    4 12.90%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack slightly annoys me

    0 0%
  • Leaders – Constant hijacking is annoying

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I hate being hijacked on every move I lead

    1 3.23%
  • Leaders – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
  • Followers - I love hijacking on every move

    0 0%
  • Followers – I like to hijacking moves occasionally

    12 38.71%
  • Followers – I never hijack as I don’t like to

    2 6.45%
  • Followers – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
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Thread: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

  1. #61
    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by dep View Post
    I know that a hatchback is not an automobile.
    Pray, put me out of my misery.
    As in "what is the hatchback move" or do you want me to hire a hit on you? The hatchback is a yo-yo with a free spin instead of the move out .

  2. #62
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    But some people, like you, & Lee, etc DO do it very well.

    Never do it too much though.
    Cheers.

    I think it works better men dancing with men. I tend to Sabotage men leading more than I do women. Mainly only from one or two moves and if the music is right.

  3. #63
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    I think if the follow sabotages for fun then as long as they know what they are doing and it's not a beginner they are dancing with then there really isn't anything wrong with it. However when the sabotage is being done to prove a point then this is just needless and isn't playful at all. It could actually be seen as being a pretty nasty way of dancing with somebody. A few dancers do sabotage like this. It's as if they are proving some sort of point. I think this is what 666 was refering to when he mentioned every move being sabotaged.

  4. #64
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    when the sabotage is being done to prove a point then this is just needless and isn't playful at all. It could actually be seen as being a pretty nasty way of dancing with somebody.
    Yes, however, if a follow sabotages 'every drop', it may be because she has a bad back or doesn't feel safe, which IMO is pefectly acceptable.

    Also, she may feel uncomfortable dancing very UCP with certain leads, so, uses a sabotage to get herself out of those situations too.

    In both cases, the lead should read the signs and adapt their dancing to comply with the messages the follow's sending out!
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  5. #65
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Yes, however, if a follow sabotages 'every drop', it may be because she has a bad back or doesn't feel safe, which IMO is pefectly acceptable.
    I'd agree with this. Although possibly after the first time, explaining about the injury might be a better method.

    That all said, is refusing a drop "sabotage?" I'm not sure, I'd call this and the UCP example more "defensive dancing".

  6. #66
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'd agree with this. Although possibly after the first time, explaining about the injury might be a better method.

    That all said, is refusing a drop "sabotage?" I'm not sure, I'd call this and the UCP example more "defensive dancing".
    She may not have a bad back and she might like doing drops with other leads.

    Telling someone you've got a bad back and then doing drops with the next person would be wrong.

    the fact is, some men do drops well (on me) and others don't

    I have to have confidence in the person I'm dancing with and as soon as I start to feel unsafe or under strain, i'll do my upmost to abort!


    And I really appreciate NOT having to make an excuse, explain myself or be put in that situation time and time again!
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  7. #67
    Registered User jive-vee's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I have to have confidence in the person I'm dancing with and as soon as I start to feel unsafe or under strain, i'll do my upmost to abort!


    And I really appreciate NOT having to make an excuse, explain myself or be put in that situation time and time again!

  8. #68
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    There is one girl who i dance with occassionaly who sabotages the hell out of my every move.

    I dont ask her to dance, she keeps asking me so I just throw her a mercy dance everytime she asks.

    I am a saint really.

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  9. #69
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Cheers.

    I think it works better men dancing with men. I tend to Sabotage men leading more than I do women. Mainly only from one or two moves and if the music is right.
    So does that beg the question, if the follow can't lead then should they ever sabotage?

  10. #70
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    I had a couple of women at Southport throw themselves at the floor after they confused a certain lead I was giving with one that they recognise for a drop (at least I presume this to be the case - it was the same lead that led (happy, DJ?) to it each time). Maybe it was sabotage and I didn't recognise it !

  11. #71
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I had a couple of women at Southport throw themselves at the floor after they confused a certain lead I was giving with one that they recognise for a drop
    What was the lead for?

  12. #72
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I had a couple of women at Southport throw themselves at the floor after they confused a certain lead I was giving with one that they recognise for a drop (at least I presume this to be the case - it was the same lead that led (happy, DJ?) to it each time).
    Then there's a chance that other leaders use that lead, or a very similar one, to actually lead drops... Not saying what you do is wrong, but if it did happen several times may be you want to be careful about that lead / change it slightly so as to make sure that there is no confusion possible for your followers... (I can feel a debate coming, should you change your lead because everybody else is doing it wrong )

    Incidentally it happened to me once to go in a drop that wasn't lead (a loooong time ago), it was with a guy who does several drops a dance and I got both used to it and confused by a similar lead (he did catch me). Didn't happen twice though.
    However it happens a lot more often that I 'miss' leads for drops, or just don't go into them eventhough I know it's expected, because I'd rather have it that way round and I have trust issues anyway (guy's ability, floorcraft, etc).

  13. #73
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew View Post
    Cheers.

    I think it works better men dancing with men. I tend to Sabotage men leading more than I do women. Mainly only from one or two moves and if the music is right.
    I'd like to know why you think that, and does it necessarily lead to 666's view below?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    So does that beg the question, if the follow can't lead then should they ever sabotage?
    And seperately (since Lee didn't initially say why he thinks that) you assume it's got something to do with the follow's ability to lead or otherwise.

    And do you both think that avoiding moves the follow doesn't like is sabotage, or the defensive dancing DJ mentioned?

  14. #74
    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Incidentally it happened to me once to go in a drop that wasn't lead (a loooong time ago), it was with a guy who does several drops a dance and I got both used to it and confused by a similar lead (he did catch me). Didn't happen twice though.
    However it happens a lot more often that I 'miss' leads for drops, or just don't go into them eventhough I know it's expected, because I'd rather have it that way round and I have trust issues anyway (guy's ability, floorcraft, etc).


    Missed a lean at Hammersmith on Saturday, which really confused the guy. But it wasn't a clear enough lead, and I didn't want to go crashing to the floor (which even in a lean you can do if not balanced properly). When he looked confused I just said "I wasn't sure if that was going to be a lean" (i.e. I couldn't read it, not "you didn't lead it properly") and he did it again, a lot more clearly and successfully a few bars later.

  15. #75
    Basically lazy robd's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    What was the lead for?
    a) Walking the dog?
    b) Lining the church roof?
    c) Chinese toy paint?

    I don't know, possibly an inside turn into closed hold across the body type of thing. Clearly these ladies, who are all IMO good, competent follows (well, one exception has just sprung to mind) thought it was a lead for a dip/drop but I am not sure why other than anticipation as I didn't adjust my height or, as far as I am aware, their height as part of the lead.

    I've had it happen before so I will see if I can remember what I did next time it happens.

  16. #76
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Missed a lean at Hammersmith on Saturday, which really confused the guy. But it wasn't a clear enough lead, and I didn't want to go crashing to the floor (which even in a lean you can do if not balanced properly).
    A guy I like dancing with, led what I was confident was going to be a lean... so I went for it, then he stepped backwards.. I managed to step across, half saving myself with my outside foot, just as he caught me under the armpits..

    I said, OMG.. I thought you led me into a lean and he said "i did, and it went just how I'd 'hoped' it would go!

    Just as well huh!

    EDIT just want to add.. this guy is 'strong' and a very experienced dancer.. so don't any of you weakling's get any idea's
    Last edited by Lory; 8th-February-2008 at 01:51 PM.
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  17. #77
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I don't know, possibly an inside turn into closed hold across the body type of thing.
    I think I know what you mean. If at the end of the inside turn you put the lady's right arm around your neck, chances are, she will think you want her to lean next, because, let's face it, most of the time this is what happens. It's quite rare not to have a lean after that, in fact.
    I'm the opposite on that particular one though (must be dancing with you ), I don't normally go for them, and as a result very often I have a confused leader who wonders: 'why did you not lean'?
    Last edited by Caro; 8th-February-2008 at 02:05 PM.

  18. #78
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    All this makes you wonder how much is deliberate sabotage, and how much is an ambiguous lead being mis-interpreted.

  19. #79
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    Excuses, or real problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    Telling someone you've got a bad back and then doing drops with the next person would be wrong.
    Sorry if I'm quoting you out of context -- I haven't really read the thread, but this line jumped out at me.

    I have one friend who does have a bad back (the actual injury is in her hip). Her doctors have told her to give up dancing ceroc (and told her to limit her argentine tango). She does dips and drops with me, and with 2 other guys. She did a workshop with me towards the end of last year, but she couldn't walk the next day.

    On your rule, she would never, ever be able to do dips and drops -- but she likes them. Why shouldn't she be able to refuse to do them with most people (citing a bad back, which is basically true -- the injury is in her hip, but the pain manifests in her back), while still doing them with the few people she knows and trusts?

  20. #80
    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    A deliberate alteration of a move that the leader had intended.
    So how do you define "deliberate alteration"?
    It is quite possible to follow perfectly, and still not do what the leader intended. I guess that is not a "deliberate alteration".
    Somewhere on the internet (I can't find the reference right now) I read that following involves choosing a step from those allowed by the leader. "allowed by the leader" is quite different to "leader had intended".

    So I would say hijacking is the follower choosing a step that the leader has not allowed. That is, if you have to fight the lead to do your step, you have hijacked.
    And hijacking is a terrorist act -- you've probably landed yourself a lifetime wearing a locator beacon around your ankle.

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