Leaders – I love being hijacked on every move I lead
Leaders – I like being hijacked but not excessively
Leaders – The odd hijack keeps me on my toes
Leaders – The odd hijack slightly annoys me
Leaders – Constant hijacking is annoying
Leaders – I hate being hijacked on every move I lead
Leaders – For me I think it can be dangerous
Followers - I love hijacking on every move
Followers – I like to hijacking moves occasionally
Followers – I never hijack as I don’t like to
Followers – For me I think it can be dangerous
I think if the follow sabotages for fun then as long as they know what they are doing and it's not a beginner they are dancing with then there really isn't anything wrong with it. However when the sabotage is being done to prove a point then this is just needless and isn't playful at all. It could actually be seen as being a pretty nasty way of dancing with somebody. A few dancers do sabotage like this. It's as if they are proving some sort of point. I think this is what 666 was refering to when he mentioned every move being sabotaged.
Yes, however, if a follow sabotages 'every drop', it may be because she has a bad back or doesn't feel safe, which IMO is pefectly acceptable.
Also, she may feel uncomfortable dancing very UCP with certain leads, so, uses a sabotage to get herself out of those situations too.
In both cases, the lead should read the signs and adapt their dancing to comply with the messages the follow's sending out!
MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
She may not have a bad back and she might like doing drops with other leads.
Telling someone you've got a bad back and then doing drops with the next person would be wrong.
the fact is, some men do drops well (on me) and others don't
I have to have confidence in the person I'm dancing with and as soon as I start to feel unsafe or under strain, i'll do my upmost to abort!
And I really appreciate NOT having to make an excuse, explain myself or be put in that situation time and time again!
MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
There is one girl who i dance with occassionaly who sabotages the hell out of my every move.
I dont ask her to dance, she keeps asking me so I just throw her a mercy dance everytime she asks.
I am a saint really.
DTS Dave XXX XX
I had a couple of women at Southport throw themselves at the floor after they confused a certain lead I was giving with one that they recognise for a drop (at least I presume this to be the case - it was the same lead that led (happy, DJ?) to it each time). Maybe it was sabotage and I didn't recognise it !
Then there's a chance that other leaders use that lead, or a very similar one, to actually lead drops... Not saying what you do is wrong, but if it did happen several times may be you want to be careful about that lead / change it slightly so as to make sure that there is no confusion possible for your followers... (I can feel a debate coming, should you change your lead because everybody else is doing it wrong )
Incidentally it happened to me once to go in a drop that wasn't lead (a loooong time ago), it was with a guy who does several drops a dance and I got both used to it and confused by a similar lead (he did catch me). Didn't happen twice though.
However it happens a lot more often that I 'miss' leads for drops, or just don't go into them eventhough I know it's expected, because I'd rather have it that way round and I have trust issues anyway (guy's ability, floorcraft, etc).
I'd like to know why you think that, and does it necessarily lead to 666's view below?
And seperately (since Lee didn't initially say why he thinks that) you assume it's got something to do with the follow's ability to lead or otherwise.
And do you both think that avoiding moves the follow doesn't like is sabotage, or the defensive dancing DJ mentioned?
Missed a lean at Hammersmith on Saturday, which really confused the guy. But it wasn't a clear enough lead, and I didn't want to go crashing to the floor (which even in a lean you can do if not balanced properly). When he looked confused I just said "I wasn't sure if that was going to be a lean" (i.e. I couldn't read it, not "you didn't lead it properly") and he did it again, a lot more clearly and successfully a few bars later.
a) Walking the dog?
b) Lining the church roof?
c) Chinese toy paint?
I don't know, possibly an inside turn into closed hold across the body type of thing. Clearly these ladies, who are all IMO good, competent follows (well, one exception has just sprung to mind) thought it was a lead for a dip/drop but I am not sure why other than anticipation as I didn't adjust my height or, as far as I am aware, their height as part of the lead.
I've had it happen before so I will see if I can remember what I did next time it happens.
A guy I like dancing with, led what I was confident was going to be a lean... so I went for it, then he stepped backwards.. I managed to step across, half saving myself with my outside foot, just as he caught me under the armpits..
I said, OMG.. I thought you led me into a lean and he said "i did, and it went just how I'd 'hoped' it would go!
Just as well huh!
EDIT just want to add.. this guy is 'strong' and a very experienced dancer.. so don't any of you weakling's get any idea's
Last edited by Lory; 8th-February-2008 at 01:51 PM.
MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
"If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine
I think I know what you mean. If at the end of the inside turn you put the lady's right arm around your neck, chances are, she will think you want her to lean next, because, let's face it, most of the time this is what happens. It's quite rare not to have a lean after that, in fact.
I'm the opposite on that particular one though (must be dancing with you ), I don't normally go for them, and as a result very often I have a confused leader who wonders: 'why did you not lean'?
Last edited by Caro; 8th-February-2008 at 02:05 PM.
All this makes you wonder how much is deliberate sabotage, and how much is an ambiguous lead being mis-interpreted.
Sorry if I'm quoting you out of context -- I haven't really read the thread, but this line jumped out at me.
I have one friend who does have a bad back (the actual injury is in her hip). Her doctors have told her to give up dancing ceroc (and told her to limit her argentine tango). She does dips and drops with me, and with 2 other guys. She did a workshop with me towards the end of last year, but she couldn't walk the next day.
On your rule, she would never, ever be able to do dips and drops -- but she likes them. Why shouldn't she be able to refuse to do them with most people (citing a bad back, which is basically true -- the injury is in her hip, but the pain manifests in her back), while still doing them with the few people she knows and trusts?
So how do you define "deliberate alteration"?
It is quite possible to follow perfectly, and still not do what the leader intended. I guess that is not a "deliberate alteration".
Somewhere on the internet (I can't find the reference right now) I read that following involves choosing a step from those allowed by the leader. "allowed by the leader" is quite different to "leader had intended".
So I would say hijacking is the follower choosing a step that the leader has not allowed. That is, if you have to fight the lead to do your step, you have hijacked.
And hijacking is a terrorist act -- you've probably landed yourself a lifetime wearing a locator beacon around your ankle.
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