View Poll Results: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

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  • Leaders – I love being hijacked on every move I lead

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I like being hijacked but not excessively

    8 25.81%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack keeps me on my toes

    4 12.90%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack slightly annoys me

    0 0%
  • Leaders – Constant hijacking is annoying

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I hate being hijacked on every move I lead

    1 3.23%
  • Leaders – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
  • Followers - I love hijacking on every move

    0 0%
  • Followers – I like to hijacking moves occasionally

    12 38.71%
  • Followers – I never hijack as I don’t like to

    2 6.45%
  • Followers – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
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Thread: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

  1. #21
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by cat View Post
    Clearly too much can be bad and annoying, but a little is fun and keeps people on their toes.
    Why do you want to keep people on their toes?

    Quote Originally Posted by cat View Post
    Whether you like it or not is fair enough, but what annoys me is if you do a variation on a move and the guy just repeats it until you do it "His way". To me, this is not dancing with somebody but sticking with a fixed, unflexible routine.
    Possibly, the guy simply thought you'd followed incorrectly - or that he'd led incorrectly - and wanted to get it right? There's a whole other discussion of whether "practicing" is acceptable in social dancing of course, but that's the obvious alternative explanation.

    And I'm also tempted to say that if your hijack wasn't clear - that is, you didn't clearly take the lead, and clearly hand it back - then it's largely your responsibilty. As you're the leader during a hijack, you get the responsibility as well as the power.

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Yes, do it, sez I. Just do it carefully,
    Which, 99% of people don't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    and avoid doing it with DJ if he hasn't taken his pills that day (if he starts pulling 'funny' faces at you during a dance, sabotage away )
    I'm nearly sabotage-proof at the moment (I know, famous last words - but it's almost impossible to sabotage in AT).

    I still pull funny faces though.

  3. #23
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Well I hate the word "Gobbledygook" personally. Errr... and?

    Are you saying that you hate the word, or that you hate the action, or that there's no such thing, or what?
    Well I trust you don't need me to copy and paste dictionnary definitions here - they both convey the idea of some sort of agression and the use of force.
    Not something I want to be part of any dance (at least the ones I am involved in).

    So, if a follow use force or any sort of sneaky way to do something that is not lead, well I think it deteriorates any connection you may have, and is not something I aspire to do.

    However if a follow manages to do something that is not lead without damaging the connection, and the lead respond to that well (i.e. not a beginner who may be thrown off by it), I call that 'contributing' to the dance, and it is something I enjoy doing (or trying to, I can't say I'm the queen of smooth everytime) and that IMO adds another dimension to the dance.
    Depending on the dancers abilities, that could be as simple as extending a move by a couple of beats, or a full change of lead for a couple of bars as Stray described above.

    'Sabotaging' for the sake of it (i.e. 'got you!') is just silly IMO (unless it's a game both dancers enjoy). Doing something unexpected that fits the music, while not damaging the connection, is a different ball game.

  4. #24
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    I find I dance at my best when the follower takes an active part in the dance. This can sometimes take the form of hijacking. (Or sabotage, or whatever you want to call it.)

    There are other factors though, such as how good the follower is at hijacking, what form the hijacks take, and the mood of the music. (A really nice slow, smooth blues track usually doesn't call for hijacks.)

    One of my favourite partners over the weekend at Southport hijacked me a lot. I really enjoyed my dances with her. At my last Southport, another lady hijacked me a lot, and I didn't enjoy it so much.

    Learning to hijack, I guess is a bit like learning to lead. It takes time, and ultimately you can really only learn in freestyle. So I can put up with a few awkward hijacks along the way to get to dance nirvana.

    Oh, I should say I don't like hijacks where my follower tries to lead me – I'm a crap follower, and usually miss the lead.

    Think hijacking followers need to be very careful bout who they hijack though. Some guys don't seem to cope so well. Maybe it's a control thing...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  5. #25
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Some guys don't seem to cope so well. Maybe it's a control thing...
    Ahhhh, just getting into the idea of following, which for a bossy control freak like me has been very hard work - for God's sake don't give me an option of being in control on the dancefloor...

  6. #26
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    lmao... Call it what U like, Caro, but it's still sabotage.

    Sabotaging the lead is very different to sabotaging a dance. It would be a great pity if someone's ego led to the two becoming mixed, or even worse embroiled into the same thing...

    Sabotage is one thing: I love it when people do it well, but understand when people try it. I know I'm more difficult to sabotage when I know/loike the track because I have definite ideas... However, people like Plum, Yli, etc all do so with great aplomb.

    Hijacking is different and feels more instant to me: Nicole, FH and Witty are my favourite hijackers.

    When being led, I will hijack/sabotage. Generally, because I feel I can contribute within the parameters of the lead and the music. Much as whet many have said above...

    So... drop the ego.... become an agent saboteur...
    And.. drop the ego... become an agent sabotee....

  7. #27
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    If I remember right CJ sabotaged me at Sp this weekend and I did the same to him as we were both swapping leads in a truly monumental dance that, quite franckly was epic in all of its proportions.

    And modest with it too.

    One of us had a Kilt on and one of us pink finger nails....Who had what?????

    DTS Dave XXX XXX

  8. #28
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    I like to sabotage* occasionally but only when I think the lead can cope with it and then it's only on a few moves per dance (and not on every dance)

    Most people would say that I'm fairly playful but hopefully not in a detrimental way - there's definitely a time and a place for it

    (*my definition of sabotage is changing one move into another - i.e. neckbreak/sway into catapult - I'm a rubbish leader so wouldn't take the lead of the dance)

  9. #29
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    As DavidJames says, we need definitions to talk meaningfully. Here are mine:

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    One way to think of embellishments is to look at the different types they can take:

    * Disconnected: embellishments that, if I shut my eyes, I wouldn't be able to feel. Eg, spare leg, spare arms, etc.
    * Connected: embellishments that I can feel, but I don't need to pay attention to. Eg, a ronde in a first move twist out.
    * Requests: embellishments that ask for some response from me, so I should pay attention, but won't end in disaster if I don't respond quickly enough. Eg: asking for some counterbalance in open position, asking to extend a turn by a couple of beats.
    * Demands: embellishments that demand or force a response from me, lest the dance break down. Eg: backleading a drop, breaking connection to do a shine, First Move Resistor, The Tart.
    I'm a bad follower, so I aim to "request" a hijack no more than once a dance, and not "demand" at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    Iis there any lead who doesn't hate it if every move they lead is hijacked?
    If every move turns into a "request", then that can be fun as an occasional one-off. It needs both me and my follower to be very much on form, though.

  10. #30
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    Ahhhh, just getting into the idea of following, which for a bossy control freak like me has been very hard work - for God's sake don't give me an option of being in control on the dancefloor...
    best work on my tension then BN huh....

  11. #31
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    ... when done well, sabotage can be fantastic. YES - it's hard to do it well, (and it's definitely best done with a leader who's up for it), but it can add a great dynanmic to a dance.

    Nicest example someone's sprung on me was in Leeds recently - I'd led some kind of underarm turn which involved me turning in some way as well - and before I new it, my partner had used her momentum and mine to continue my turn, turned me under her arm, and took the lead over for a few bars. ..
    This is what I would call Hijack.

    Quote Originally Posted by HelenB View Post
    I..(*my definition of sabotage is changing one move into another - i.e. neckbreak/sway into catapult - I'm a rubbish leader so wouldn't take the lead of the dance)
    I would call this friendly sabotage. If it is done with a leader that likes it, or can at least cope with it, it is probably better called "play".

    I would reserve the term sabotage for its more severe connotations, where the follower refuses to follow. This can be for very valid reasons, i.e. being lead into a drop or UCP against their will. More capable followers can do this in a playful fashion. The less skilled have to do it as best they can in self defence. My definition of sabotage is a negative one, where some form of hostility exists on the part of the leader, trying to lead where the follow does not want to go, and some negative reaction by the follower which disrupts the dance.

  12. #32
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    Re: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

    I'd be happy with Lee's definition, although I would simplify it.
    - Sabotage is when the follower deliberately stops following.
    - Hijacking is when the follower starts leading for a short period of time

    I'd also separately define:
    - Lead swapping as switching the roles throughout the dance.
    - Self Preservation is when the follower stops following for safety reasons. This is always allowed.

    In the context of dancing with someone you don't know
    Sabotage and hijacking both mean the same thing to me - the follower has decided to do something different to what I led. As a leader, I don't usually like that. As I've said before, do it too often and my reaction goes from to to to

    If however a follower embellishes what I have led, then I'm all for it. If I don't give a complete lead (direction, rotation, connection, momentum & timing), then the follower is welcome to do what she likes with the bits I've left out. Or at the extreme if I haven't led anything, then the follower can do anything she wants. All this is still 'lead and follow'.

    Sabotage is not lead and follow. Hijacking is 'follow and lead', and may not be what your partner wants.

    If you still want to sabotage or hijack with someone you don't know, then my advice would be:
    - Don't sabotage coming up to an interesting bit in the music. The Leader is (hopefully) thinking ahead, and may be setting up for something. Any sort of sabotage would throw him off. (Similarly leaders shouldn't expect ladies to do some stunning improvisation in the boring bits of a track. Respect the fact that it is a partnership.)
    - If you are going to hijack, then make sure the man knows how to follow, or you know how to lead.
    - Watch and remember the reaction when you do it.


    If dancing with someone you do know, and you know what they like
    then why are you asking me? Just get on the floor and start dancing.


    I rarely get hijacked - maybe every couple of months. I get sabotaged even less. That is about the right amount for me.

  13. #33
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Well I trust you don't need me to copy and paste dictionnary definitions here - they both convey the idea of some sort of agression and the use of force.
    Well, yes. Errr, that's kind of the point.

    To me, they describe the end of a spectrum - the other end could be "interpretation / enmbellishment".

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Not something I want to be part of any dance (at least the ones I am involved in).
    So, don't do it?

    I'm sorry, but I still don't understand your point. Not all improvisation is "sabotage", so why get worked up about a type of behaviour, which you don't do?

    Or are you saying that we should ban the words themselves? Or that you think "sabotage" is synonymous with all stylistic interpretative dancing? Coz I'm still deeply

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    So, if a follow use force or any sort of sneaky way to do something that is not lead
    Arrghh!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    However if a follow manages to do something that is not lead without damaging the connection, and the lead respond to that well (i.e. not a beginner who may be thrown off by it), I call that 'contributing' to the dance, and it is something I enjoy doing (or trying to, I can't say I'm the queen of smooth everytime) and that IMO adds another dimension to the dance.
    Sure - I don't think I'd call that sabotage either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    'Sabotaging' for the sake of it (i.e. 'got you!') is just silly IMO (unless it's a game both dancers enjoy). Doing something unexpected that fits the music, while not damaging the connection, is a different ball game.
    I agree. And I'm not sure why we're arguing, because I've never said otherwise. Is this a French thing?

  14. #34
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'm sorry, but I still don't understand your point. Not all improvisation is "sabotage", so why get worked up about a type of behaviour, which you don't do?

    Or are you saying that we should ban the words themselves? Or that you think "sabotage" is synonymous with all stylistic interpretative dancing? Coz I'm still deeply
    ok I guess what I'm saying is that the follow can do say, thing A, and depending on how she does it, and who she does it with, it is perceived by the leader as a sabotage or as an embellishment. Yet it is the same thing A. Depends on how smoothly she does it, and how well the lead reacts to it.

    So it's almost a social skill to be able to improvise things without them be perceived as sabotage (which as I said, I don't want to do).

    So ideally I'll adapt what I do that's not led (happy?) to the guy I'm dancing with.

    Am I making more sense here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Arrghh!!!
    at least I didn't confused it with laid

  15. #35
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Very flattered to be a favourite hijacker of CJ

    The thing is, I don't think those of us who contribute to the dance in this way really view it as "hijacking" or "sabotage". For me, it is just what happens when dancing with people who have the capacity to let me be who I am (and more) when I dance. It is not conscious.

    When I know I am dancing with someone who has to think out their moves, I consciously subdue myself. With very nervous people, I eliminate footwork variations, stick to their beat (except when the music makes me do otherwise - that can be tough) and rarely do more than a single spin. This is actually rather hard work.

    At Southport, I had a first dance ever with someone I don't know and he made some comment about no one being able to control me on the dance floor.

    I must say I felt a little misunderstood.

    On the other hand, I guess this maybe why I don't get asked to dance a lot. Whilst I can always moderate my behaviour a bit, I am who I am, and that goes for dance as well as life. It means I really appreciate those leads who seek me out and appreciate me for who I am.

  16. #36
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Hips View Post
    The thing is, I don't think those of us who contribute to the dance in this way really view it as "hijacking" or "sabotage". For me, it is just what happens when dancing with people who have the capacity to let me be who I am (and more) when I dance. It is not conscious.
    that's kind of what I'm getting at, although I'm obviously not that clear. Cheers for putting it that way FH

  17. #37
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Hips View Post
    For me, it is just what happens when dancing with people who have the capacity to let me be who I am (and more) when I dance. It is not conscious.
    Abosolutely, this is a spot on description of how I feel!
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  18. #38
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Hips View Post
    The thing is, I don't think those of us who contribute to the dance in this way really view it as "hijacking" or "sabotage".
    Yeah, it sounds like there's a large degree of subjectivity involved - it's like a group being perceived as "cliquey".

    But, again, I'd submit that the opinion of the person doing the "whatever you want to call it" is not relevant - in the same way that the opinion of a person inside the group is not relevant. The important thing is how the other person (or the people outside the group) view it.

    If someone says you're sabotaging them, then you are sabotaging them - because that's the way they feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Hips View Post
    At Southport, I had a first dance ever with someone I don't know and he made some comment about no one being able to control me on the dance floor.
    Sounds like honest feedback - why did it upset you? Did he say it in a nasty way or what?

  19. #39
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    As a leader I'm always more wary on a very crowded dance floor, and I do try my best to lead my partner into free space.

    I'd be worried that in that environment, reckless saboteurs might end up crashing into other dancers.
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Sounds like honest feedback - why did it upset you? Did he say it in a nasty way or what?
    No, he didn't say it in a nasty way. Negative feedback from a complete stranger always feels a little wierd, don't you think? Imagine if I started telling leads before I even danced with them that I found their style dull and controlling. Call me a sensitive wee soul if you like but I think there needs to be a relationship for that kind of feedback, I think.

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