View Poll Results: What are your thoughts on HIJACKING?

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  • Leaders – I love being hijacked on every move I lead

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I like being hijacked but not excessively

    8 25.81%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack keeps me on my toes

    4 12.90%
  • Leaders – The odd hijack slightly annoys me

    0 0%
  • Leaders – Constant hijacking is annoying

    2 6.45%
  • Leaders – I hate being hijacked on every move I lead

    1 3.23%
  • Leaders – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
  • Followers - I love hijacking on every move

    0 0%
  • Followers – I like to hijacking moves occasionally

    12 38.71%
  • Followers – I never hijack as I don’t like to

    2 6.45%
  • Followers – For me I think it can be dangerous

    0 0%
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Thread: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

  1. #101
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Different activity surely ? Isn't that called wrestling ?


    That's what I thought.

    I don't want a competition between two leads as a dance - it just does nothing for me. One leader, one follower. Nice and easy to remember.

  2. #102
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    At a lesson recently we had the slow comb taught with two wiggles and then the lady pushing the man away with her hand on his chest as part of the move.

    I am quite happy for this to be taught as "sabotage", where the lady does not want to be that close to the guy, but I found that I really did not like it being taught as part of the normal move.
    If it's the one I'm thinking of, that move's been around for ages though - it's not new, it must be at least 12 years old, probably more. From what I recall, there was a "plan B" option for it last time I saw it taught - women could put their hands on the guys shoulder, or something.

    But I don't understand why that's sabotage? I mean, the guy leads it still, doesn't he?

  3. #103
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If it's the one I'm thinking of, that move's been around for ages though - it's not new, it must be at least 12 years old, probably more. From what I recall, there was a "plan B" option for it last time I saw it taught - women could put their hands on the guys shoulder, or something.

    But I don't understand why that's sabotage? I mean, the guy leads it still, doesn't he?
    The guy is leading a slow comb - IMO that is designed to last until the guy leads its conclusion. If the follower aborts that by pushing on the guys chest IMO that is sabotage. If the follower does not want to be there tha is one thing, but to teach the push away loses the options for a cosy chat or play, which both parties may enjoy.

  4. #104
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    At a lesson recently we had the slow comb taught with two wiggles and then the lady pushing the man away with her hand on his chest as part of the move.

    I am quite happy for this to be taught as "sabotage", where the lady does not want to be that close to the guy, but I found that I really did not like it being taught as part of the normal move.
    I'm not sure whether I'd call this hijacking or sabotage or what, but I think it's important to teach ladies that there are ways out of close moves.

    As "part of a normal move", presumably there was no actual lead that made the lady put her hand on the man's chest to push him away, so it is likely only to be done while dancing when the lady actually wants to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But I don't understand why that's sabotage? I mean, the guy leads it still, doesn't he?
    How do you lead your follower to push you away without actually putting the lady's hand on you and saying "push me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The guy is leading a slow comb - IMO that is designed to last until the guy leads its conclusion. If the follower aborts that by pushing on the guys chest IMO that is sabotage. If the follower does not want to be there tha is one thing, but to teach the push away loses the options for a cosy chat or play, which both parties may enjoy.
    Why would the follower push away if she preferred the cosy chat or play?

    OK... We have two moves... the standard slow comb, and what we might call the "slow comb push-away".

    The lead from the guy is identical. Whether the "push away" happens is entirely up to the woman.

    The main reason in my experience for women sabotage/hijack/whatever is to bring some of their own musicality to the dance. And that alone is a very good reason to teach this kind of thing.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  5. #105
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The guy is leading a slow comb - IMO that is designed to last until the guy leads its conclusion. If the follower aborts that by pushing on the guys chest, IMO that is sabotage.
    I'd agree with that. The follower is altering the move in a way that requests a response from the leader: specifically, he is to step back and start leading. If he fails to respond, it doesn't break the dance, but it certainly introduces a moment of awkwardness.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Different activity surely ? Isn't that called wrestling ?
    Example of sabotaging a sabotage:
    1. The leader leads a travelling return.

    2. The follower "sabotages" by extending the return over several beats, probably adding gratuitous wiggles. In doing so, she demands a response from the leader, because he can no longer carry on leading the travelling return.

    3. Halfway through the follower's extended pass-by, the leader places his spare hand (the right) on the follower's right hip. He uses this to lead her back to her original position, thus "sabotaging" her pass-by. In doing so, he demands a response from the follower, because she can no longer carry on passing by.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    The main reason in my experience for women sabotage/hijack/whatever is to bring some of their own musicality to the dance. And that alone is a very good reason to teach this kind of thing.
    I'd rather they were taught to bring their own musicality into the dance without sabotaging/hijacking/whatever. Or at least taught the non-disruptive way first.
    Last edited by MartinHarper; 9th-February-2008 at 09:41 PM.

  6. #106
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I'd rather they were taught to bring their own musicality into the dance without sabotaging/hijacking/whatever. Or at least taught the non-disruptive way first.
    How much opportunity is there for followers to bring their own musicality into the dance in a non-disruptive way?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  7. #107
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    I've given this a bit more thought.

    I hate to think that whenever I do something that we shall call 'unled', my leader thinks I'm 'sabotaging' him

    I like to think of a dance as something 'in the making', something happening rather than planned. I like when it is not fixed and planned from beat 1 but when it constantly adapts, adjusts to the dancers and the music. In that frame of mind, it is possible for the follow to do 'things' in a way that suggests to the leader that some adjustments are now required / suggested. Even better if the leader is in fact providing space for those adjustments to happen naturally (i.e. an invitation to follow, with space to 'play' within that invitation, rather than an order to go through a pre-determined set of moves).

    I wouldn't 'highjack' somebody who I perceive to be very controlling / or who I know dislike it. However those people are rare (and the best way to be sure they don't like it is to do it once and see the reaction ).
    Most great dancers anyway provide the follow the space she needs and seem to have understood that the dance is the result of 2 people dancing; not one dictating moves to the other. So in those instances no need to discuss sabotaging anymore, it doesn't exist

  8. #108
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    The guy is leading a slow comb - IMO that is designed to last until the guy leads its conclusion. If the follower aborts that by pushing on the guys chest IMO that is sabotage. If the follower does not want to be there tha is one thing, but to teach the push away loses the options for a cosy chat or play, which both parties may enjoy.
    Oh right, I get you - I was thinking of the in-and-out push-away move.

    Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying now - if the follower decides to do that, without it being led, that could be viewed as sabotage. Although it might be justified, so I'd still be tempted to class it as defensive dancing. Like all these things

    To me, whether the follower's defensive dancing (to get some distance because she's uncomfortable being too close), or whether the follower's sabotaging (because she just wants to mess things up a bit) depends on motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    How do you lead your follower to push you away without actually putting the lady's hand on you and saying "push me"?
    Body lead. Of course, it can only be invitational, but I think it's leadable. I may give it a go tonight, if I remember...

  9. #109
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Example of sabotaging a sabotage:
    1. The leader leads a travelling return.

    2. The follower "sabotages" by extending the return over several beats, probably adding gratuitous wiggles. In doing so, she demands a response from the leader, because he can no longer carry on leading the travelling return.
    I'm not sure I'd call that "sabotage", personally - more like interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I'd rather they were taught to bring their own musicality into the dance without sabotaging/hijacking/whatever. Or at least taught the non-disruptive way first.
    Unfortunately, sabotaging is seen as sexy, empowering, Advanced, etc. Musicality is seen as boring and technical.

    I blame the bloody-intermediates, personally.

  10. #110
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    I wouldn't 'highjack' somebody who I perceive to be very controlling / or who I know dislike it. However those people are rare (and the best way to be sure they don't like it is to do it once and see the reaction ).
    Despite the impression people have, I'm not really a complete control freak, and I'm happy to accommodate stylistic musical interpretation.

    However, it takes longer to get used to dancing with this type of dancer - you need more "getting-to-know-you" time before it works well.

    And the absolute worst ever dance I've had in my life was with a female dancer who provided the ultimate in "show dancing", whilst making me feel like a complete plank. Admittedly, she was an extreme case, but I'd rather avoid that experience in future...

  11. #111
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'm not sure I'd call that "sabotage", personally - more like interpretation.
    Can it be both?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    How much opportunity is there for followers to bring their own musicality into the dance in a non-disruptive way?
    I think there's lots, though I guess it depends on the leader.

  12. #112
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven666 View Post
    I’m keeping stum on this issue for the moment…(I’ll reply later)...
    I've no problem with ladies who take a few bars for themselves (Fletch is a great one to dance with "great imagination and timing") It does add something to the dance but it has to be in the right place at the right time. If it isnt it ruins the whole dance.

  13. #113
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled Feet View Post
    I've no problem with ladies who take a few bars for themselves (Fletch is a great one to dance with "great imagination and timing") It does add something to the dance but it has to be in the right place at the right time. If it isnt it ruins the whole dance.
    But that's not classed as sabotage is it?

    Surely it's musical interpretation.

  14. #114
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    But that's not classed as sabotage is it?

    Surely it's musical interpretation.
    It's both. Hopefully.

    The follower is changing the executed move/movement from what the leader had in mind (first move plus return) to something different (first move free spin, no return, into 20 beats of solo shines). That, in my eyes, makes it "sabotage". I attach no negative connotations to that word.

    It could also be musical interpretation because the follower might be doing it in response to something in the music. Then again, it might not be musical interpretation: it might be in response to something the leader is doing, or just at random.

  15. #115
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    ... Why would the follower push away if she preferred the cosy chat or play? ....

    ... Whether the "push away" happens is entirely up to the woman...
    That is how I believe the slow comb should be taught.

    It was in fact taught with the push away as an integral part of the move. Experienced dancers, having been taught the slow-comb the normal way, would recognise this as an option.

    Those followers coming across it for the first time would obey in freestyle, IMO perhaps giving a false impression of rejection.

    FWIW my two best dances at recent St. Neots nights have been with a lady that improvises for most of the dance, and I love it.

    For that matter some of my most enjoyable dances recently at Bedford were with an absolute beginner who just did not get the lessons properly, and just filled in with her own thing. A big challenge, and great fun. I don't think she got on very well with the regular crowd though.

  16. #116
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangled Feet View Post
    ...... If it isnt it ruins the whole dance.


    The only things that can ruin an entire whole dance for me are:
    • The lead hurts me and continues to do so (too strong, thumbs, poor management of my shoulder when turning me ....)
    • The person I'm dancing with sleazes on me

    Now, I know (obviously especially DTS) all you leads are pretty darn perfect. Unfortunately, us follows are not. We have personalities that may not mesh with yours , we have (sometimes) great dance ideas and better musicality (we think) than you and occasionally we even simply make a dog's breakfast of a move or two

    I am very tempted to say "give us a break" but that could be taken in so many ways

  17. #117
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Hips View Post
    We have (sometimes) great dance ideas and better musicality (we think) than you...
    Great. Express those ideas and musicality whilst following. If you can't, learn how.

  18. #118
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Body lead. Of course, it can only be invitational, but I think it's leadable. I may give it a go tonight, if I remember...
    It kind of gets lead by the guy thrusting his chest out at you, usually combined with a smug grin. IMO when this happens they are inviting you to be playful. Give them a playful push to add a bit of fun into the dance. If they are inviting the lead to play they need to be ready for exactly that.

    Have to admit that until this thread I hadn't considered not pushing the guy away. Could be different next time a guy thrusts his chest at me! .Thanks all.

    And DJ - How did it go?

  19. #119
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What are your thoughts on Sabotaging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    And DJ - How did it go?
    Hell, it completely slipped my mind. - I was too busy doing Tango things.

    I blame Marc and Rachel for distracting me by playing such good music.

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