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Thread: Atheism: your views...

  1. #41
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    I'm confused...you have the authority (god given?) to decide what kind of views and expressions of views are acceptable, but when your views are challenged you accuse others of being closed minded...how does that work?
    .
    Err... of course I have the authority to decide what is acceptable to me and of course I have the authority to claim that in my opinion that someone is being close minded.

    Ronde is a atheist who supports Dawkins' militant position. He doesn't like the term so that's why he's defending it. I, on the other hand, have no strong religious convictions and am not part of any of the organized religious groups Dawkins and his disciples are attacking. So, I have no vested interest either way and am just giving an opinion as an intelligent individual looking in on all this from the outside.

    Who do you think is better placed to give an honest and balanced opinion?

    As far as you are concerned, you don't believe this militancy is a problem and that's fine, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, the fact that atheists in America currently represent one the most hated organized groups should suggest to you that what's bubbling under the surface is not as benign as you would believe.

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    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    I've discovered something about me, reading this, I'm totally ignorant about most religious matters... but 'I LIKE IT THAT WAY!

    I sang hymns at school..I was in the school choir and I actually enjoyed it, as I like singing but the 'stuff' we were singing about meant nothing to me.

    I went to Sunday school, cos my best friend went and it was something to do.. (TV was soo boring on Sundays) but again, it meant nothing to me!

    A couple of years back, religion come up in a conversation with my parents and it was quite a revelation to find out that my parents 'believe' in God? I don't think they'd ever mentioned religion before that.. and none of us are Christened.

    I've simply never had the urge or need to find out more and i'm quite happy in my ignorance.

    I don't believe and that's it!!

    I'm tolerant of 'others,' as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me or think they're better than me.

    I have a clear understanding of what's right and wrong, I don't need 'fear' to force me to make the right decisions.

    I don't hate anyone.

    I feel sorry for people who's lives are full of constraints and rules..who've been indoctrinated into believing 'other' people, who've been indoctrinated into 'other' religions, are evil. In my eyes the whole thing is stupid!

    Sadly, like it or not, religion 'does' seem to be the cause of most of the trouble and I believe the world would be a better place without it!
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  3. #43
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I've discovered something about me, reading this, I'm totally ignorant about most religious matters... but 'I LIKE IT THAT WAY!

    I sang hymns at school..I was in the school choir and I actually enjoyed it, as I like singing but the 'stuff' we were singing about meant nothing to me.

    I went to Sunday school, cos my best friend went and it was something to do.. (TV was soo boring on Sundays) but again, it meant nothing to me!

    A couple of years back, religion come up in a conversation with my parents and it was quite a revelation to find out that my parents 'believe' in God? I don't think they'd ever mentioned religion before that.. and none of us are Christened.

    I've simply never had the urge or need to find out more and i'm quite happy in my ignorance.

    I don't believe and that's it!!

    I'm tolerant of 'others,' as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me or think they're better than me.

    I have a clear understanding of what's right and wrong, I don't need 'fear' to force me to make the right decisions.

    I don't hate anyone.

    I feel sorry for people who's lives are full of constraints and rules..who've been indoctrinated into believing 'other' people, who've been indoctrinated into 'other' religions, are evil. In my eyes the whole thing is stupid!

    Sadly, like it or not, religion 'does' seem to be the cause of most of the trouble and I believe the world would be a better place without it!
    Exactly, Lory: you're a free thinking and tolerant atheist - which, of course by anyone standards, is a perfectly acceptable ideology based on how you feel.

    And of course you know the difference between what's right and wrong, as do the vast majority of people of all belief systems and organized religions across the World. Militant Atheists unfortunately do not subscribe to the belief that religious individuals understand the difference as they tar ALL religious people with the same 'fundementalist brush'.

    It's an ignorant view point to assert that people who either do not believe in God or, do believe in God, somehow don't know the difference between right and wrong, or good and evil. Some people ARE brainwashed in this way, which is what their propoganda is based on, but the vast majority are not.

    Militant Atheism say's all religions should be banned because the inferrence is that people cannot make those choices. What utter rubbish.

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I have no vested interest either way and am just giving an opinion as an intelligent individual looking in on all this from the outside.

    Who do you think is better placed to give an honest and balanced opinion?
    I tend to think that the people who don't resort to personal insults are the one's worth debating with.

    You clearly do have a vested interest because you passionately detest this Dawkins man, so much so that you use agreement with his opinions as an insult. You've lost the ability to examine this topic with an open mind and have resorted to misinterpretation and blatant scaremongering.

    You'll never be a Dawkins like guru with that attitude...

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    : This is actually on Richard Dawkins’ website:

    An atheist's call to arms
    Richard Dawkins, TED 2002
    The session was titled "The Design of Life," and the TED audience was probably expecting remarks about evolution's role in our history from biologist Richard Dawkins. Instead, he launched into a full-on appeal for atheists to make public their beliefs and to aggressively fight the incursion of religion into politics and education. etc...

    I repeat: this is on Richard Dawkins own website – a ‘call to arms - aggressively fight…’. That’s every bit as militant as ‘extremist members of religions’ and if you still don’t think this is militancy in every sense of the word then I believe you are comprising your own good sense to try and win an argument….
    I don't think this is militancy. I think the language is strong, but I only see that as serving to show how strongly he believes politics should be secular and he does call on them to make public their beliefs. I think it's logical to assume this is his form of 'fighting'. I see that as quite a reasonable idea (I was fairly disgusted with George Bush asserting that they were sure to win the Iraq war because God was on their side).

    I was on a weight loss website and they actually say on THEIR website to 'fight the flab'. I didn't take it to mean that it's encouraging 'Militant Weight-Lossism', enflaming impressionable thin people into killing or maiming fat folk.

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    Registered User Isis's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    I was on a weight loss website and they actually say on THEIR website to 'fight the flab'. I didn't take it to mean that it's encouraging 'Militant Weight-Lossism', enflaming impressionable thin people into killing or maiming fat folk.
    Brilliance! (must be genetic )

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Ok, so you're an atheist that supports Dawkins' points of views and his methods, and reads his books and listens and watches his propoganda and believes everything he says. I get it now. I made the mistake of thinking that I was talking to someone who was an open minded, free thinking individual.
    No, I said I watched that TED talk. But I also had Catholic AND Church of England upbringing, and I finished reading the entire Bible in my childhood, including memorising large tracts for performance at Eisteddfods. I even had a shot at reading the Koran a few years ago out of interest, and when I went to India in 2005, I spent a couple of months learning about Hinduism, which I think is fascinating.

    But if it's really about having an open mind, I don't suppose you've even READ any of Dawkins' books, hmmm? I suppose you're making all of these allegations based on what... your gut feeling? What you've read from others on the internet?

    Not good enough. Read widely. Form an educated opinion. Then bring. It.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    All of what Dawkins does in the name of Militant Atheism is irrational, but as I'm preaching to the converted, I can understand why you can't see that.
    There's nothing quite so irrational as someone ranting against something they don't even understand. Go away and read the books before you write your review on them, please!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I think you'll find that religion is also a massive force for good too. Charities, aid, shelters, etc.etc. Not to mention the vast numbers of good honest people who use religious beliefs to create a structure to live their lives by. But, hey.. lets ignore all that shall we, and just concentrate on the tiny percentage who ARE mad because it suits your purpose to do so.
    And this is why I know you haven't read up - because if you had, you'd know this isn't any kind of argument for theism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Good grief... Ok, one last time: Dawkins can use whatever language he likes, and you can be as vocal and impassioned as you like. But as far as I am concerned that is 'militant'

    Militant: Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause:

    It is an accurate definition and if you choose not to accept it because you're an atheist that supports Dawkins, then I understand that - your point of view is just biased that's all.

    Finally: I'll tell you what's been interesting about the last week or so, and that's for the first time I've had dialogue with you and Barry, two people who clearly represent this kind of 'new age' atheism. What an eye opener! You may not be aware of it, but you both come across as every bit as brain washed as the religious fundementallists Dawkins codemns.

    Through out this discussion I have constantly said that I accept the passive advocacy of most atheists. I've stated that I understand the ideology and I also have some sympathy with the posistion. But not at ANY time have you said, 'actually do you know what, I agree that at times Dawkins and The 4 Horsemen can go a bit too far.' You've shown no balance at all in this debate and no acceptance that there is even a small issue that should be addressed.

    And that closed minded, blinkered view is very worrying....
    Before you try to take the splinter out of someone else's eye, try removing the log from your own first. Your case is repetitively hypocritical:
    • You claim that if atheists use strong, emotive language, that's "militant". But you're clearly using your own emotive language - words like "militant" and "cult" and you seem to think that as long as it's YOU doing it, that's okay.
    • You claim I'm one of Dawkins "followers" when I've actually read widely on theology, theism and atheism alike, and I've formed my own opinions based on critical evaluation. You, on the other hand, seem to have formed an opinion based on watching a YouTube video. LoL.
    • You claim it's not okay for people to publicly advocate atheism, but you are obviously happy to publicly condemn those who do. What's the difference between Dawkins expressing his belief at TED 2006, and you expressing yours here? (Apart from academic credibility, LoL)...


    If you really want a discussion, then you have to be prepared for an opinion that disagrees with your own. I personally don't judge *anyone* based on their religious beliefs, just on their merits, (I personally think that's a better system) so if you *REALLY* want to convince me that those who publicly advocate atheism are doing humanity a disservice, you'll need to bring a better case...

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    Registered User Ronde!'s Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Ronde is a atheist who supports Dawkins' militant position. He doesn't like the term so that's why he's defending it. I, on the other hand, have no strong religious convictions and am not part of any of the organized religious groups Dawkins and his disciples are attacking. So, I have no vested interest either way and am just giving an opinion as an intelligent individual looking in on all this from the outside.

    Who do you think is better placed to give an honest and balanced opinion?
    What you're saying here is that because I disagree with your opinion, I'm somehow a "Dawkins supporter" and deserve less credibility! ROFL! I think anyone can answer your question, but not in the way you might hope!

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    What you're saying here is that because I disagree with your opinion, I'm somehow a "Dawkins supporter" and deserve less credibility! ROFL! I think anyone can answer your question, but not in the way you might hope!
    But you're not "correct" until you agree with Rocky. Fact

  10. #50
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    I was on a weight loss website and they actually say on THEIR website to 'fight the flab'. I didn't take it to mean that it's encouraging 'Militant Weight-Lossism', enflaming impressionable thin people into killing or maiming fat folk.
    Shows how much we've degraded words like "fight" - similar to the way we've degraded "War" (War on Want, War on Terror, War on Drugs, etc.). Ironically, none of the actual wars we're engaged in are "Wars" - in fact, I think the last time we were technically at "War" was in WWII.

    Hmmm... there was a point to this post when I started it...

    Oh yes, Dawkins.

    "Agressively fight" - despite the degradation of those terms - in relation to a set of beliefs, does kind of imply militancy. If a religious leader said "We need to aggressively fight for our beliefs", it's not unreasonable to assume that militancy, or at least fundamentalism, is involved.

    Of course, we're getting into the "Words meaning what I want them to mean" debate, which never really goes anywhere anyway. So it's ideal for this thread

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    does kind of imply militancy
    But does it kind of imply that Dawkins and his fans are going to start sending planes hurtling into churches so we should be afraid, be very afraid?

  12. #52
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    What you're saying here is that because I disagree with your opinion, I'm somehow a "Dawkins supporter" and deserve less credibility! ROFL! I think anyone can answer your question, but not in the way you might hope!
    Well... so far you have only defended Dawkins and have clearly indicated that you do not see anything that he is doing as wrong... and you are atheist ..... and Dawkins is the patron saint of atheism. So, ummm... you are a 'supporter' in every sense of the word. And I have no problem in you disagreeing with my opinion, but based on the content of your posts that just about amounts to ignoring everything going on and saying, 'well, I don't call it Militancy...' Fine, that's up to you and IMO your view is based on being sympathetic to his 'cause'. On the other hand I've given enough evidence to show that it can be defined as 'Militant' and that's my opinion as someone with no vested interest either way.

    As for reading Dawkin's drivel: yes, I have - and I've been onto his website numerous times, and I have been onto 2 atheistic forums. So, ALL of what I have written is based on experience. (hmmmm.)

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ... and you are atheist ..... and Dawkins is the patron saint of atheism. So, ummm... you are a 'supporter' in every sense of the word.

    As for reading Dawkin's drivel: yes, I have - and I've been onto his website numerous times, and I have been onto 2 atheistic forums. So, ALL of what I have written is based on experience. (hmmmm.)
    You called yourself an atheist in the ' International Cretins...' thread

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiger Feet View Post
    You called yourself an atheist in the ' International Cretins...' thread
    I did, you're right. But then I did correct that comment on that thread - and on this thread, (as well as the other related threads last week), I have referred to myself as a pantheist.

    I don't believe in organized religion and I don't believe in there being a personal (one) God. So, I do understand the atheistic view point. But where I differ is that I do believe in something that exists in the spiritual connection of Humanity with Nature and the Universe - and I have to say that I have an inherrent distrust of anybody that claims never to have experienced this or won't accept that such a connection is possible.

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    bloody militant pantheists

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Well... so far you have only defended Dawkins and have clearly indicated that you do not see anything that he is doing as wrong... and you are atheist ..... and Dawkins is the patron saint of atheism. So, ummm... you are a 'supporter' in every sense of the word. And I have no problem in you disagreeing with my opinion, but based on the content of your posts that just about amounts to ignoring everything going on and saying, 'well, I don't call it Militancy...' Fine, that's up to you and IMO your view is based on being sympathetic to his 'cause'. On the other hand I've given enough evidence to show that it can be defined as 'Militant' and that's my opinion as someone with no vested interest either way.

    As for reading Dawkin's drivel: yes, I have - and I've been onto his website numerous times, and I have been onto 2 atheistic forums. So, ALL of what I have written is based on experience. (hmmmm.)
    I don't think you quite get it... I've never said in this thread that I think Dawkins is completely right, only that you are completely wrong - or, at least, that you sound hypocritical for criticising his conduct but essentially engaging in the same behaviour. Advocacy and passion are not militant; free speech is not militant; having conviction is not militant; and a group of people sharing ideas is not a cult. It's ridiculous, and rather more obsessive, to suggest otherwise...

    But by your own admission, the entirety of your ideas about atheism has been gleaned from three websites, two of which are forums and hardly "authoritative" sources of information - I imagine there's more academic rigour in the average high school book review. So even if you really have no vested interest either way, it's not like you're really an authority either way either.

    With that established... I think I'll just pretend this thread never existed... LoL. It's increasingly obvious that a dance forum isn't really the best place to find the right people to discuss the finer points of philosophy and nuanced semantics.

    Last edited by Ronde!; 5th-February-2008 at 06:08 AM.

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    With that established... I think I'll just pretend this thread never existed... LoL. It's increasingly obvious that a dance forum isn't really the best place to find the right people to discuss the finer points of philosophy and nuanced semantics.

    Oh come on...not even with my weight loss comment????

  18. #58
    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    I don't think you quite get it... I've never said in this thread that I think Dawkins is completely right, only that you are completely wrong - or, at least, that you sound hypocritical for criticising his conduct but essentially engaging in the same behaviour. Advocacy and passion are not militant; free speech is not militant; having conviction is not militant; and a group of people sharing ideas is not a cult. It's ridiculous, and rather more obsessive, to suggest otherwise...
    Yawn.... you've not really said anything, but you have inferred that you agree with Dawkins' position. And I'm hardly advocating that people abandon their religions like Dorkins does...

    And free speech using aggressive language combined with derogatory and debasing remarks about people's Faith is exactly what has been defined by people, other than me, as 'militant atheism'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    But by your own admission, the entirety of your ideas about atheism has been gleaned from three websites, two of which are forums and hardly "authoritative" sources of information - I imagine there's more academic rigour in the average high school book review. So even if you really have no vested interest either way, it's not like you're really an authority either way either.
    Yawn... again... you firstly made the incorrect assumption that I hadn't read any of his books. Now that I've proved you wrong, and also shown that I know more about atheism than you do, you're having a go at me! Hilarious.. I'm no authority, and I never said I was, but I have an opinion (just like you) but at least my opinion is based on doing some actual research on the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    With that established... I think I'll just pretend this thread never existed... LoL. It's increasingly obvious that a dance forum isn't really the best place to find the right people to discuss the finer points of philosophy and nuanced semantics.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 5th-February-2008 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Removed personal comments

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...Now that I've proved you wrong, and also shown that I know more about atheism than you do, you're having a go at me!
    Just for clarity, you haven't proven anything. You've stated that you've researched Dawkin's books, but no proof has been provided. I believe that you have read some of the output of the person you seem to detest so strongly, but you've not proved that you've done this.

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But you're not "correct" until you agree with Rocky. Fact
    That's correct. It's carved in stone somewhere - am I right? I just wish I could remember where...

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