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Thread: Atheism: your views...

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Atheism: your views...

    As, has been mentioned, we seem to be doing Religion this week: and on that basis we have to create a balance by examining atheism too – especially as it is a subject that has been raised on numerous occasions over the last two weeks; Here is an example of a post, and it does put forward a view that some people seem to support: That is, atheism is simply a benign system that just supports the concept of non-belief. Whilst I accept that this can be the case, my view is that it more readily takes on an active role rather than a passive one, as I will explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post

    Where do atheists worship? Where do they even gather regularly? What beliefs do they hold in common? Where/what are their basic texts? Who interprets atheist texts? Who are the wise men of atheism, and how do they exercise authority over their flock?

    It's simply non - sense to assert that atheism is a religion. The sole purpose of making such an assertion is to enable you to criticise atheists and atheism, and no other sensible goal is achieved thereby.
    Firstly, there is a massive difference between a passive adoption of atheism and a militant adoption of atheism. I will concern myself only with the militant.

    In Militant Atheism there is the belief in non-belief, and this is common to all individuals who are militant atheists. Now you can weasel word your way around that anyway you like. But what it means is that militant atheists not only denounce the concept of a Deity but they also believe that organized religion is wrong. This is their common set of beliefs – this is their Dogma.

    How do they exercise authority over their flock? – Who are their ‘wise’ men? and What are their basic texts? They exercise authority over their ‘flock’ by the publication of articles and books that not only promote atheism but, more importantly, also denounce organized religion – this is their basic texts. Anyone refuting or disagreeing with their claims is publicly vilified by the ‘wise’ men known as the ‘The Four Horsemen Of The (Atheistic) Apocalypse’: These are: Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion), Christopher Hitchens (God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything), Sam Harris (The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason), and Daniel Dennett (Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon). You will no doubt note the hyperbolic and antagonistic nature of the titles of these books.

    Where do atheists worship? and Where do they gather regularly? They gather regularly on a range of internationally based atheistic forums – a simple search on google will show you this. More importantly, they worship at the altar of Richard Dawkins at his website, where amongst other things, he is currently promoting (his book obviously) and a DVD called ‘The Four Horsemen’ detailing conversations between these 4 militant and opinionated individuals. You will note that his website has the ironic strapline ‘A Clear Thinking Oasis’.

    Barry is of course right though, Atheism cannot be defined as a religion. But Militant Atheism can be defined as a cult – as these definitions clearly show.

    Cult
    Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

    The object of such devotion.

    An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

    The question we need to ask ourselves then: Is it allowable for people to denounce religion in this way and to promote it via websites, books, articles and public Forums? Because isn’t Militant Atheism just as insidious and fundamental as the fundamentalists it attacks? And finally, what of the concern that we should have in that they appear to be promoting what is, to all intents and purposes a cult, under the veneer of respectability?

    I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    The question we need to ask ourselves then: Is it allowable for people to denounce religion in this way and to promote it via websites, books, articles and public Forums?
    I would have thought that any group that denies another group the freedom to 'believe' (in whatever) is on a morally sticky wicket to begin with ... as long as the other 'belief' does not in some way pose a threat to the majority. It may be that the majority view is that 'God is dead / never existed' ... but that does not convey them the right to persecute believers, and more than the Spanish inquisition is seen as generally a BAD thing ... even if it did give us one of the greatest comic sketches of all time.

    However, as with all things concerning fundamental belief, there is a grey zone. Am I by denying a fundamentalist atheist the right to launch a literary attack on my faith, denying them of their fundamental right to free expression? There was much controversy about a piece of work called 'Pi$$ Christ' which featured a crucifix in a vat or urine. I found it distasteful on many levels, but I wouldn't want to see it banned.

    Maybe the true test of your belief is the degree to which you able to accept others to ridicule that belief. As long as not physical or mental injury is done ... it merely pert of the debate about beliefs .. be it about religion, politics or whether The Fruit of the Carrot Tree is surely Satan's own fruit (q.v. Black Adder Series 1)

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    well put simply : athiesm is a lack of belief or denail in god(s) there is no belief or worldview or system involved.

    If you want to label someone who is very anti-religious as something - "Militant Atheist" isn't any good, as atheism has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The only purpose for using the word is to missrepresent atheism. Not only that, but there are anti-religious people who beleive in gods making it a lie, rather than just useless. One example here is where Elton John "would like to see all organised religion banned" even though "there are some wonderful things about it"

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    Registered User Ronde!'s Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Hi Rocky,

    Your attempt to define atheism as a religion is, unfortunately, far too broad to be credible.

    If you define "militancy" as any kind of active advocacy of a belief (or lack of belief), "wise men" as any person with a reputation in a field of thought, "basic texts" as any popular book in an area of thought, and "gatherings" as including online forums, then your definition is broad enough to include stamp collecting, train spotting, and car modding as religions too.

    Wouldn't these be "cults" under your definition? Groups of people obsessively following a particular belief (that particular bits of printed paper are somehow valuable, or that Fords are better than Mazdas or what have you?)

    Really, those kinds of beliefs have more in common with religion than atheism does. Just as a devoted collector of Mustangs sees little value in other car makes, so too a person who believes in one particular religion sees little value in other religions. The Mustang collector may be ignorant of the luxury or performance features of other cars; and a person who believes in one religion is generally ignorant of the features of other religions.

    I mean, if you're Christian and you're reading this, I bet you can't provide an explanation as to why the Christian God has a better claim to being the one true god when compared to, say, Zeus. Or Shiva. Or Thor. You might say that Christianity has better beliefs, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if you can prove that ANY particular God is real, using primary evidence.

    None of this "well it says so in this book" stuff. There are books which reference ALL of the gods I've just mentioned, many of which precede the Bible by thousands of years.

    If you discount the existence of all other gods... then it's not such a big leap of the imagination to go just one god further.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    I mean, if you're Christian and you're reading this, I bet you can't provide an explanation as to why the Christian God has a better claim to being the one true god when compared to, say, Zeus. Or Shiva. Or Thor. You might say that Christianity has better beliefs, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if you can prove that ANY particular God is real, using primary evidence.
    Well .. one might argue that the fact that Christianity has authenticated documentation from a series of prophets going back a few millennia and the generally accepted fact that JC actually existed (though whether he was the Son of God is open to dispute). Most of the other religions seem to be based on a 'Man in a sleep has a vision and writes it down' .... OK ... being somewhat simplistic about it .... but at least I'm having a go at arguing (rather inexpertly) for the Christian God corner.

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    Registered User Ronde!'s Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Well .. one might argue that the fact that Christianity has authenticated documentation from a series of prophets going back a few millennia and the generally accepted fact that JC actually existed (though whether he was the Son of God is open to dispute). Most of the other religions seem to be based on a 'Man in a sleep has a vision and writes it down' .... OK ... being somewhat simplistic about it .... but at least I'm having a go at arguing (rather inexpertly) for the Christian God corner.
    I'm not disputing the fact that there is reasonable documentary evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ. It's the notion of Jesus' divinity that's debatable. Jesus was declared to be "Son of God" and "of the same substance as God" by an ecumenical council - the First Council of Nicaea - in 325 CE. That's rather like a bunch of Scientologists meeting in 300 years time and declaring L. Ron Hubbard was god on earth, based on surviving copies of his Scientology novels. There's proof the man existed on earth, but it's not the same as the fellow being God.

    There's also evidence that Buddha was a real chap, and *all* of the Egyptian pharaohs were considered gods on earth. Does any of this make any of them divine, per se?
    Last edited by Ronde!; 29th-January-2008 at 11:27 PM.

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    Hi Rocky,

    Your attempt to define atheism as a religion is, unfortunately, far too broad to be credible.

    Wouldn't these be "cults" under your definition?
    Hi Ronde, I agree: militant atheism is a cult and I thought that I had defined it as such.. The quotes regarding 'wise' men etc. were really only there to answer the points in Barry's initial quote. Once I demonstrated this I did move on to then redifining it to show that it was less like a religion (although there are some parallels) and was more like a cult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Barry is of course right though, Atheism cannot be defined as a religion. But Militant Atheism can be defined as a cult – as these definitions clearly show.

    Cult
    Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

    The object of such devotion.

    An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

    The question we need to ask ourselves then: Is it allowable for people to denounce religion in this way and to promote it via websites, books, articles and public Forums? Because isn’t Militant Atheism just as insidious and fundamental as the fundamentalists it attacks? And finally, what of the concern that we should have in that they appear to be promoting what is, to all intents and purposes a cult, under the veneer of respectability?

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    That's rather like a bunch of Scientologists meeting in 300 years time and declaring L. Ron Hubbard was god on earth, based on surviving copies of his Scientology novels.
    They'd really miss a trick if they DIDN'T do that anyway...300 years from now there'll be more jedi than anyone else - there's much more in the way of documentation and actual footage

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    Am I by denying a fundamentalist atheist the right to launch a literary attack on my faith,
    what's a fundamentalist atheist ?

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Hi Ronde, I agree: militant atheism is a cult and I thought that I had defined it as such..
    I think you are agreeing with the voices in your head again

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    well put simply : athiesm is a lack of belief or denail in god(s) there is no belief or worldview or system involved.

    If you want to label someone who is very anti-religious as something - "Militant Atheist" isn't any good, as atheism has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The only purpose for using the word is to missrepresent atheism. "
    I agree entirely with your first point (as pointed out in my original post), but disagree entirely with your second.

    The people and the 'movement' they have started are both anti-religious AND atheists. That's why the term 'militant atheist' has entered our laguage and is used as an acceptable term to describe this behaviour and to charecterize these kind of people. Let's face it you could hardly call a book titled: God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, anything but an aggressive attack on organized religion. Hence 'militancy' and as it was written by an atheist with the sole purpose of undermining the concept of organized religion - 'Militant Atheism'.

    The four people mentioned have also called themselves 'The Four Horsemen' which is designed to antagonize Christians with its link to a biblical term that refers to man's destruction. It is obvious what this denotes: They see themselves as the people who will bring about the destruction of organized religion. This IS what they represent and this IS their goal.

    They are trying to accomplish this by using anti-religious propoganda linked to publications, forums and websites. So this IS most definitely 'something' and if anyone is trying mis-represent atheism it is they and their devotees, not those who report on their existance and what it infers...

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Hi Ronde, I agree: militant atheism is a cult and I thought that I had defined it as such.. The quotes regarding 'wise' men etc. were really only there to answer the points in Barry's initial quote. Once I demonstrated this I did move on to then redefining it to show that it was less like a religion (although there are some parallels) and was more like a cult.
    So where do the agnostics fit into this scheme? Are they kind of like atheists who are hedging their bets?

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    So where do the agnostics fit into this scheme? Are they kind of like atheists who are hedging their bets?
    I don't know... but I wonder if some agnostics are actually pantheists but just don't know it..

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Hence 'militancy' and as it was written by an atheist with the sole purpose of undermining the concept of organized religion - 'Militant Atheism'.
    But the fact he is an atheist is not the important point - is he short? try "Militant Midget" does he have red hair? "Militant Ginger" - all are just as "good" as "Militant Atheist". They are all terms that say nothing about his stance on organised religion - unless by using "atheist" you want to suggest some link between anti-religion and atheism that isn't there. Its not a link you want to suggest, as its the exact thing you protest AGAINST - marginalising a group of people, anti-atheist propaganda..etc..

    Where will it lead? Several surveys in the US have shown Atheists are THE most hated group (bear in mind an atheist simply does not believe - something that affects NO ONE else). Nonsense like this is hardly going to help.

    Of course, I care not because today I am a Nihilist (I gave up being a pantheist after you agreed with me, they clearly take anyone )

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    It's the notion of Jesus' divinity that's debatable. Jesus was declared to be "Son of God" and "of the same substance as God" by an ecumenical council - the First Council of Nicaea - in 325 CE.
    That's true, but it's not the whole story. The belief in the divinity of Jesus had been around long before then (even the apostle Peter is on record as addressing Jesus to his face as "My Lord and my God."), and was arguably held by the majority, but it was at Nicaea that it was set down in black and white as a core belief of Christianity.

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch View Post
    That's true, but it's not the whole story. The belief in the divinity of Jesus had been around long before then (even the apostle Peter is on record as addressing Jesus to his face as "My Lord and my God."), and was arguably held by the majority, but it was at Nicaea that it was set down in black and white as a core belief of Christianity.
    so going by that, Ronde! is right - we can expect L Ron Hubbard to be "set down" as a true god around about 2311. Shame we won't be around to see it - we should make our youTube videos now and complain.

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    Registered User Ronde!'s Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Barry is of course right though, Atheism cannot be defined as a religion. But Militant Atheism can be defined as a cult – as these definitions clearly show.

    Cult
    Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

    The object of such devotion.

    An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
    No, actually. Atheism is not militant, as I discussed in my first post in this thread. Advocacy is not the same as militancy. People speaking out about their beliefs is completely different from people fighting for them. Otherwise you'll just have to classify the RSPCA as a group of "militant chicken liberationists". LoL. Oh yes, and Planet Ark would be "militant tree savers".

    And Atheism certainly isn't a cult. Under the broad interpretation of "cult" that you seem to imply, *all* religions are 'cults':

    Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

    What could be more obsessive than monotheism? Having complete and utter faith in a "thing" called God or a "person" called Jesus, ? Giving large sums of money to said obsession for no reason other than to further the aims of the organisation claiming to represent said thing or person?

    Atheists do not venerate or devote ourselves obsessively to atheism. Atheists just don't believe in god, and are quite happy to explain why if you'd like to know. I know I certainly don't meet up with other atheists once a week, pray nightly to Richard Dawkins, or donate money to build structures that magnify the glory of atheism.
    Last edited by Ronde!; 30th-January-2008 at 04:07 AM.

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    let's wait patiently for a sensible reply from Rocky...but L.Rons veneration may come first

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    For reference purposes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Whilst I accept that this can be the case, my view is that it more readily takes on an active role rather than a passive one, as I will explain.

    Firstly, there is a massive difference between a passive adoption of atheism and a militant adoption of atheism. I will concern myself only with the militant.

    Cult
    Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

    An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    No, actually. Atheism is not militant, as I discussed in my first post in this thread. Advocacy is not the same as militancy. People speaking out about their beliefs is completely different from people fighting for them.
    Hi Ronde, I think you're making the mistake that many people do in assuming that 'militancy' only means 'fighting' and/or 'physical' aggression. Whilst it does have that connotation, it is not a necassary development of the term. So, it can also be charcterized in this way:

    Militant: Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause:

    So, you're right, the vast majority of atheists DON'T act in this way. But there a small very vocal, aggressive, high profile group who do. And that was the point of my post as I mentioned in this qualifying statement:

    'Firstly, there is a massive difference between a passive adoption of atheism and a militant adoption of atheism. I will concern myself only with the militant.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    And Atheism certainly isn't a cult. Under the broad interpretation of "cult" that you seem to imply, *all* religions are 'cults':
    With respect, I don't believe I do infer that all religions are cults - and if you have taken that from my post, then I apologize, as that was not my intention. But in any event, the point of this thread is not to discuss what religion is or isn't, it is to discuss what 'Militant Atheism' is. And it is most definitely a cult, given the actions of 'The Four Horsemen' who personify it:

    Cult
    Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

    An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

    They are 'obsessive' about their 'cause' and they are 'an exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric intellectual interest.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde! View Post
    Atheists do not venerate or devote ourselves obsessively to atheism. Atheists just don't believe in god, and are quite happy to explain why if you'd like to know. I know I certainly don't meet up with other atheists once a week, pray nightly to Richard Dawkins, or donate money to build structures that magnify the glory of atheism.
    I'm glad to hear that! And you're right, 'atheists' don't do all the things you list, but 'Militant Atheists' do, and that's my point.

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    Re: Atheism: your views...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    But the fact he is an atheist is not the important point - is he short? try "Militant Midget" does he have red hair? "Militant Ginger" - all are just as "good" as "Militant Atheist". They are all terms that say nothing about his stance on organised religion - unless by using "atheist" you want to suggest some link between anti-religion and atheism that isn't there. Its not a link you want to suggest, as its the exact thing you protest AGAINST - marginalising a group of people, anti-atheist propaganda..etc..
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post

    Where will it lead? Several surveys in the US have shown Atheists are THE most hated group (bear in mind an atheist simply does not believe - something that affects NO ONE else).
    Nonsense like this is hardly going to help.
    DS, you cannot compare the examples you have given with the point I’m making. Primarily because the terms you have used are about what people are, whereas the discussion is about what people believe. But, I’ll try and help by referencing them. If you had red hair and just simply accepted that, then I would categorize you as a passive 'red hairist.' If on the other hand you aggressively sought the adoption of an ideology that promoted the banning of any hair type other than red hair and also promoted the ideology that people with any other hair colour than red were somehow inferior to you, then I would categorize you as a ‘Militant Red Hairist’. (I don’t think it’s appropriate to use the two slightly derogatory terms you used.)

    And yes, there is a link between ‘anti-religion and atheism’ – it’s called ‘Militant Atheism’. And as I have just explained to Ronde, this term does NOT apply to the majority of atheists. I have never said it does, and I’m confused as to why you should continue to infer that I do.

    As to where it will all lead: This is exactly the point of this post and others I have made on this subject. The reason why atheists are the most hated group in America is because of the anti-atheistic propaganda that exists there. And I’m sure you can imagine that the alternative Militant Atheistic propaganda produced by The 4 Horsemen is a contributory factor in this situation. So the majority of free thinking passive atheists out there, are ALL being condemned on the basis of the actions of a small group of very opinionated individuals. That’s why we should not condone or support the act of Militant Atheism... It not only attacks Religion in an insidious manner, but also brings the concept of atheism into disrepute AND it increases division and a tendency towards aggression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Of course, I care not because today I am a Nihilist (I gave up being a pantheist after you agreed with me, they clearly take anyone )

    Of course, if you want to change from the Natural World, Universal harmony view of Pantheism to Nihilism, then that’s your prerogative. And actually, having looked up the definition I can see that it suits you very well and is especially concise in defining your participation on this Forum..

    Nihilism: is a philosophical position which argues that past and current human existence is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value.

    You said it mate, I’m just agreeing with you..

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