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Thread: The US Election thread

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    The US Election thread

    So, what do people think?

    I have to say, I'm impressed with the calibre of the candidates generally - admittedly George Bush makes anyone else look impressive.

    My ideal contest would be Obama vs McCain, and not just because it'd be like the West Wing, but because I think they both represent the best parts of the parties.

    I've gone right off Hillary Clinton - she's shown herself to be a bit too willing to get into the mud when the going gets tough.

    Anybody else have any preferences?

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    Re: The US Election thread

    It's interesting to see that Hilary Clinton has managed to lose the support of their family friends, and most loved family in America, the Kennedys, in favour of Obama.
    He probably won't want to admit it, but having Teddy Kennedy on his side, could be one of the biggest factors in whether he wins or not.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I have to say, I'm impressed with the calibre of the candidates generally - admittedly George Bush makes anyone else look impressive.
    You're impressed by:
    • Mike "Kevin Spacey in 'President Creationist'" Huckabee
    • Rudy "I Saved the World on September 11th, You Know" Guliani
    • Mitt "Everybody's Favourite Mormon" Romney
    • Ron "No Epithet Goes Far Enough to Describe What a Complete Fruitcake He Is, But the Fact that All the Internet Propellorheads Love Him Is Evidence Enough" Paul

    ?!?

    I actually think Bush looks good next to some of them.

    Note: I'm not biased here - most of the Democrat nutters dropped out early, it must be said. Except Dennis Kucinich, America's very own Michael Foot.


    Oh, er, Obama for Pres. Just to hear the name "Hussein" mentioned on Inauguration Day, as a spectacularly ironic comment on the monumental clusterf*** of the Bush years.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    You're impressed by:
    • Mike "Kevin Spacey in 'President Creationist'" Huckabee
    • Rudy "I Saved the World on September 11th, You Know" Guliani
    • Mitt "Everybody's Favourite Mormon" Romney
    • Ron "No Epithet Goes Far Enough to Describe What a Complete Fruitcake He Is, But the Fact that All the Internet Propellorheads Love Him Is Evidence Enough" Paul

    ?!?
    Come on, you know there are always nutters - I'm talking about the front runners.

    Giuliani's a no-hoper, I can't even see him winning Florida, which he's pretty well moved to over the past few months - so he has no chance.

    And what's wrong with Romney? Or are we labelling and discriminating against people because of their religion now?

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    And what's wrong with Romney? Or are we labelling and discriminating against people because of their religion now?
    Stirrer.

    Romney's problems are mostly nothing to do with his religion*. More to do with his weathervane-like ability to say whatever his audience wants to hear at any given moment. Suspiciously Blair-esque, really.

    *Though you can't deny there are a few odd things about the LDS - they're kinda like the 19th century's version of Scientologists, really. The whole tithing thing, the "Oh, we don't do polygamy anymore, honest" stuff, the suppression of dissent, the racism, the sexism, the homophobia...OK so maybe I'm being unfair, looks like they're just like most other religions...

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    My ideal contest would be Obama vs McCain, and not just because it'd be like the West Wing, but because I think they both represent the best parts of the parties.
    I want Obama to win, but I'm worried that if he starts to get too close to success he'll be assassinated.

    (Like Martin Luther King)

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Oh, er, Obama for Pres. Just to hear the name "Hussein" mentioned on Inauguration Day, as a spectacularly ironic comment on the monumental clusterf*** of the Bush years.
    ...Or even ???

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    Re: The US Election thread

    I think they should elect that Hanging Chad guy who nearly won in Florida.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Stirrer.
    Well yeah, but you started it

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Romney's problems are mostly nothing to do with his religion*. More to do with his weathervane-like ability to say whatever his audience wants to hear at any given moment. Suspiciously Blair-esque, really.
    Yeah, he's a squeaky-clean Hair God, basically. But, he's got some solid experience, and God knows he'd be 200% better than Basil Bush.

    Admittedly, that's not much of a qualification - my 5-year-old son would be 100% better than Bush.

    If I had the vote in the US, I'd go for McCain. Integrity, guts, consistency. And he's been right on all the important issues. I'm not sure what else you could ask for in a leader.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    My preference would be for Mike Huckerby but my prediction is that Hillary Clinton will win.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    ...Or even ???
    ummm... big oops! (good find btw)

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    My preference would be for Mike Huckerby but my prediction is that Hillary Clinton will win.
    Huckerby would be good... could be like having Huck Finn or Huckleberry Hound as President! good ole American icons.. yehaw

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If I had the vote in the US, I'd go for McCain. Integrity, guts, consistency. And he's been right on all the important issues. I'm not sure what else you could ask for in a leader.
    How about someone who doesn't go about singing "Let's bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran", and who was such a vociferous cheerleader over Iraq (which blows your "right on all the important issues" straight out the water)? Indeed, he's unusually hawkish for an ex-military man.

    We'd see more of the same disastrous US foreign policy with McCain IMO.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    How about someone who doesn't go about singing "Let's bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran",
    Am I weird to wonder how that'd sound as a song?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    and who was such a vociferous cheerleader over Iraq (which blows your "right on all the important issues" straight out the water)?
    Almost everyone (except Obama) voted for the war on Iraq in 2002.

    And if you look at the position of the Republican candidates on Iraq / Iran:
    BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Vote USA 2008
    And the position of the Democrat candidates on Iraq / Iran:
    BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Vote USA 2008

    - they're all pretty much identical on Iran (diplomacy, then sanctions, but not ruling out military force).

    But on Iraq, Clinton voted for the 2003 invasion, but now says she would have acted differently had she known what she knows now. She was against the surge - which McCain supported, at some high cost to himself - and she's been proved wrong on that also.

    Obama's at least consistent - which is why I'd like to see him as the Democrat candidate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    We'd see more of the same disastrous US foreign policy with McCain IMO.
    Possibly - but at least we can be fairly sure that he won't support torture by the US forces, unlike the current muppet.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    - they're all pretty much identical on Iran (diplomacy, then sanctions, but not ruling out military force).
    It's a measure of volume. Most other candidates (with the thankfully now irrelevant exception of Giuliani) have struck me as having a measured viewpoint on Iran. McCain's history shows a worrying enthusiasm for going to Plan C above, much quicker than the others.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But on Iraq, Clinton voted for the 2003 invasion, but now says she would have acted differently had she known what she knows now. She was against the surge - which McCain supported, at some high cost to himself - and she's been proved wrong on that also.
    You're arguing the 'surge' was a success now? Wow - look, remember that rat infestation which started in your house last week, after I burnt it down last year (I was looking for some gas canisters)? I've fixed it! Hoorah!
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Possibly - but at least we can be fairly sure that he won't support torture by the US forces, unlike the current muppet.
    Indeed, a great comfort to us all as he launches World War III with Russia and China over Iran.

    Actually, scratch my "thankfully" about Giuliani. His rapid endorsement of McCain, expected today, could well be a pitch for the VP place on the ticket: given that McCain's in his 70s now and had three bouts of melanoma, the identity of his VP choice is a real concern. You only need to look at the current character occupying that office. Mind you, Giuliani's no shining beacon of health either!

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So, what do people think?

    I have to say, I'm impressed with the calibre of the candidates generally - admittedly George Bush makes anyone else look impressive.

    My ideal contest would be Obama vs McCain, and not just because it'd be like the West Wing, but because I think they both represent the best parts of the parties.

    I've gone right off Hillary Clinton - she's shown herself to be a bit too willing to get into the mud when the going gets tough.

    Anybody else have any preferences?
    Its funny the reports in the UK at least on tele and in the popular press coverage seems to be 95% Democrats and 5% Republicans coverage

    I guess the Democrats have the white /black thing

    Interesting times ahead

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    It's a measure of volume. Most other candidates (with the thankfully now irrelevant exception of Giuliani) have struck me as having a measured viewpoint on Iran. McCain's history shows a worrying enthusiasm for going to Plan C above, much quicker than the others.


    You're arguing the 'surge' was a success now? Wow - look, remember that rat infestation which started in your house last week, after I burnt it down last year (I was looking for some gas canisters)? I've fixed it! Hoorah!
    I think this is less valid, though. Iraq is a mess - granted. But once you've got the mess, you've got to deal with it as best you can. So as a way of dealing with it, I don't see it unfair to call the surge successful if it really was removing the insurgency. Big if though.

    Because what I'm hearing a lot is that the real "success" of the surge has been the tactic of going to the various extremists and saying "we'll give you guns and money if you can keep order (because we certainly can't"). A result has been far less violence between Sunni and Shia, because there are now so many regions that are only Sunni (or only Shia). And of course who knows what will happen when the guns and money stop, or the Americans leave.

    But I would be the first to say I'm probably not reading unbiased commentary here.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    It's a measure of volume. Most other candidates (with the thankfully now irrelevant exception of Giuliani) have struck me as having a measured viewpoint on Iran. McCain's history shows a worrying enthusiasm for going to Plan C above, much quicker than the others.
    Possibly - but then again, remember that military personnel are one of the only Republican core groups that support him, so his rhetoric is likely to be influenced by that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    You're arguing the 'surge' was a success now? Wow - look, remember that rat infestation which started in your house last week, after I burnt it down last year (I was looking for some gas canisters)? I've fixed it! Hoorah!
    The invasion was a complete and total mistake. I said so at the time, and I still say so now. It was irrelevant, it was unnecessary, it was worse than useless, it was extremely poorly followed-up, and it lost the USA all the goodwill it had gained after 9/11. I could go on... Donald "King numpty" Rumsfeld was a complete fool.

    That all said, the surge strategy has worked, and McCain supported it strongly at a time when all other politicians were running away from the whole issue. And he lost a lot of political clout for that support at the time, it's one of the reasons his campaign was seen as dead in the water last summer.

    Yes, it's too little, too late - but it has at last started to alleviate the situation, and to me McCain deserves credit for his support. He was right. And, he also wanted Rumsfeld out, he called for it several times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Indeed, a great comfort to us all as he launches World War III with Russia and China over Iran.
    Do you seriously think McCain's so gung-ho? I've not seen any signs of it, but I'm willing to be persuaded...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Actually, scratch my "thankfully" about Giuliani. His rapid endorsement of McCain, expected today, could well be a pitch for the VP place on the ticket: given that McCain's in his 70s now and had three bouts of melanoma, the identity of his VP choice is a real concern. You only need to look at the current character occupying that office. Mind you, Giuliani's no shining beacon of health either!
    I can't see it myself - Giuliani's been proven a complete idiot with his "strategy", I'm not even convinced an endorsement from him will be worth much.

    Americans have forgotten about national security now, anyway - they're more focussed on the economy at the moment.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin View Post
    I think this is less valid, though. Iraq is a mess - granted. But once you've got the mess, you've got to deal with it as best you can. So as a way of dealing with it, I don't see it unfair to call the surge successful if it really was removing the insurgency. Big if though.

    Because what I'm hearing a lot is that the real "success" of the surge has been the tactic of going to the various extremists and saying "we'll give you guns and money if you can keep order (because we certainly can't"). A result has been far less violence between Sunni and Shia, because there are now so many regions that are only Sunni (or only Shia). And of course who knows what will happen when the guns and money stop, or the Americans leave.

    But I would be the first to say I'm probably not reading unbiased commentary here.
    Fair points - you broke it, you own it, and so on. There's probably also an element of
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus
    solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    as far as the "success" of the surge is concerned.

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    Re: The US Election thread

    I'll repost a new version of my "accidentally" deleted post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Fair points - you broke it, you own it, and so on.
    Prior to the invasion, s number of the more thoughtful critics of the invasion of Iraq were concerned about the lack of post-invasion planning - these people included people who supported the invasion and people who opposed it. One interpretation of the lack of planning is there was a belief that once Saddam was kicked out, democracy would take over. Given how stupid that belief is, a more likely interpretation is that the US would be able to run away and leave the EU/UN to pick up the mess (ie the Afghan strategy).

    Either approach shows a pretty poor level of understanding of people - of democracy, of war and of the simple inertia of power. It also suggests that the, "we're invading for the good of the Iraqi people" line was pure rhetoric. Of course, this line only came about when the world didn't believe the other two lines - WMD and links to terrorism.

    All of the candidates with any sort of chance to win supported the war prior to its commencement. But of all of them, McCain was the most vocal and persistent. He not only supported the invasion, he actively campaigned for it. He was behind it.

    Now, all of the meaningful candidates are opposed to the war. The form of their opposition varies, depending on their personal history and party associations, but it does smell suspiciously like a convenient change of tone to fit the shifting political sands. Whoever the next president is, they'll be less gung-ho cowboy than George (actually, John Wayne would be less gung-ho cowboy than GWB).

    If I were (allowed) to vote, I honestly don't know who I'd vote for. I don't believe any of the candidates will be able to radically shift from their party line. I tend towards the democrats, because the US economy is heading towards a meltdown and I think democrats are better at managing the downward spiral to soften the landing. That said, there are only two democrats and either of them in the Whitehouse would be a huge symbolic shift for the US. I'm not sure the masses are ready for that shift. It is interesting that the democrat strategy has basically given up on the redneck and conservative Christian vote. Neither would vote for a black or a woman... of course, most would never vote for a democrat either.

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