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Thread: What is reality?

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    What is reality?

    Moved from Outside - DavidJames

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Better.

    Best of all would be "Some of what appears to be 'reality' is illusory."
    Ok another serious question (I knew there had to be a use for outside)

    What can we actually perceive as reality that is real? (Given the whole "your brain interprets electrical signals into reality" deal).

    (Yeah I know clunky english, but hopefully you get what I mean )
    Last edited by David Bailey; 23rd-January-2008 at 06:04 PM.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    What can we actually perceive as reality that is real? (Given the whole "your brain interprets electrical signals into reality" deal).
    Good question. Well, reality is real and it is how we perceive it that is the problem. As you suggest, we have a lot of trouble understanding our perceptions of reality - physical things are bad enough, our eyes can deceive us, as can every other sense. So much of "us" is created as we age, there is plenty of scope for confusion, crossed-wires, inability to understand - not to mention mental illness (of which there are so many things that could be catagorised that way, no one is ever likely to be 100% mentally perfect). Our interpretation of events inevitably has to be simplified into what we expect to happen and what we need to pay attention to. Its amazing what the brain filters out as not relevant. Its for this reason that eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable, most people are generally terrible at observing and even worse and memorising and recollecting - according to wikipeda here (yes i know, but its not exactly news this) "of the more than 200 people exonerated by way of DNA evidence in the US, over 75% were wrongfully convicted on the basis of erroneous eyewitness identification evidence"

    In other words - most peoples perception of reality, on some level, is completely different from actual reality.

    I think this is a new thread

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Ok another serious question (I knew there had to be a use for outside)

    What can we actually perceive as reality that is real? (Given the whole "your brain interprets electrical signals into reality" deal).

    (Yeah I know clunky english, but hopefully you get what I mean )
    What you are saying, I think, is that what we perceive as the outside world is actually manufactured moment by moment by our brain. We now know, for example, that the eyeballs make repeated, high-speed movements during which the brain's visual processing centre 'switches off' (to avoid motion sickness, is one possibility), and then retrospectively 'invents' what it thinks the eye would have seen if it had not been rapidly moving. (See New Scientist last year.)

    Well this may be true, but what we need to ask is to what extent this internal construct reflects 'reality', not whether it actually is reality.

    I'm looking at a book. I know that more than 99% of what is contained within that book is empty space - the empty space between nucleus and electrons and the empty space between atoms. But it's a fallacy to say that the book isn't real, because that is to make the mistake of thinking that 'matter and space' have more importance than 'force and energy'. It is the force and energy and the matter and space that create the entity 'book'.

    Where the illusory nature of the universe comes in is in areas where we seldom interact with it, or certainly had no cause to interact with it as we evolved.

    For example, radioactive decay. It offends our notions of cause and effect to know that nothing you can do can discover why one atom of plutonium decays into uranium and another does not (until later). It seems obvious that there should be a reason, something that makes one atom go...

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    Registered User Twirly's Avatar
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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I'm looking at a book. I know that more than 99% of what is contained within that book is empty space - the empty space between nucleus and electrons and the empty space between atoms. But it's a fallacy to say that the book isn't real, because that is to make the mistake of thinking that 'matter and space' have more importance than 'force and energy'. It is the force and energy and the matter and space that create the entity 'book'.
    In terms of this discussion, surely the only reality is the empty space, the nucleus and electrons, atoms, etc, that make up the "book"? They happen to be shaped into something that we interpret with the word "book".

    "Book" is a human concept/construct, possibly even a linquistic concept (try showing a book to someone who has never seen one and see if they know what it is).

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post

    I'm looking at a book. I know that more than 99% of what is contained within that book is empty space - the empty space between nucleus and electrons and the empty space between atoms.
    Its a lot more then that and its hard to get to grips with

    e.g

    A lump of neutron star matter the size of a sugar cube would weigh as much as all humanity

    density is therefore a hundred trillion times the density of water

    http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/poster1.html

    It suggests not giving the cube to horses ?

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    A lump of neutron star matter the size of a sugar cube would weigh as much as all humanity
    Is that including or excluding America?

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    In terms of this discussion, surely the only reality is the empty space, the nucleus and electrons, atoms, etc, that make up the "book"? They happen to be shaped into something that we interpret with the word "book".

    "Book" is a human concept/construct, possibly even a linquistic concept (try showing a book to someone who has never seen one and see if they know what it is).
    You've been distracted by the fact that I chose to write about 'book'. I could have chosen 'finger'.

    The point I was trying to make is that an element of what we perceive is not an illusion merely because the detailed reality differs from the gross reality that is all our senses can encompass; for example the book is probably reflecting infra red and ultraviolet radiation, but I cannot detect either. That doesn't mean that my perception of the book isn't an illusion, merely that it is incomplete.

    The question about radioactive decay however is in contrast; it's counter-intuitive. I could have chosen my favourite example, wave/particle duality, but I thought I'd go with something different.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    You've been distracted by the fact that I chose to write about 'book'. I could have chosen 'finger'.

    The point I was trying to make is that an element of what we perceive is not an illusion merely because the detailed reality differs from the gross reality that is all our senses can encompass; for example the book is probably reflecting infra red and ultraviolet radiation, but I cannot detect either. That doesn't mean that my perception of the book isn't an illusion, merely that it is incomplete.

    The question about radioactive decay however is in contrast; it's counter-intuitive. I could have chosen my favourite example, wave/particle duality, but I thought I'd go with something different.
    I wasn't distracted at all - would have said the same about any object you'd chosen.

    I've highlighted in bold the part that I think is important and accurate but incomplete. I agree that your perception of the book isn't an illusion and is just incomplete, however I would say that your perception of the object as a book is a construction of your mind, and hence possibly illusory.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I wasn't distracted at all - would have said the same about any object you'd chosen.

    I've highlighted in bold the part that I think is important and accurate but incomplete. I agree that your perception of the book isn't an illusion and is just incomplete, however I would say that your perception of the object as a book is a construction of your mind, and hence possibly illusory.
    Agreed.

    But it's the same book I saw yesterday, and the day before, and for hundreds of previous days in this office, so I am confident it is not illusory.

    Only if some other party has set out to delude me about the whole of my existence would it be illusory, and I reject that analysis as being absurd. Furthermore, if it were a true analysis there would be nothing I can do other than proceed as if it were wrong and absurd.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    What is reality? Good quesion. it's hard to define.. What we percieve can shape our own personal reality and we can share that with outers.. (I see two balls , a red one and a green one.. I can point to the red one and say "THAT'S RED" someone who has functional vision can see me pointing at the ball and agree. however, what our two . brains actually percieve may be different. Some people have a brain condition called Synthneusia (I think) were colours are percieved as sounds, or feelings or even tastes. Red may taste burnt or feel furry. But they will still be able to point to a red object so our different perceptions of reality meet.

    Try and describe to me.. the scent of .. well.. anything.. the scent of rain on a lawn after a hot dry day. Tell me about the subtle nuances. Try as you might.. there is NO way I will ever 100% understand what you're telling me. In my reality there is no such thing as the sense of smell.

    There are people out there who have no concept of the colour red. We exist in our own personal "reality" Cut off from others.. interacting with other shared perceptions but never being 100% able to fully interact. Ity's as hard for me to explain to you as it is for you to explain a smell to me, but it feels like I'm seperated from the rest of the universe by an impossibly thin transparent membrane. I can see though it.. touch though it.. but I'm never actually "being there"

    We all have our own perceptions of reality... this question has puzzled the great thinkers of our time.. and will continue to do so for some time yet.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I wasn't distracted at all - would have said the same about any object you'd chosen.

    I've highlighted in bold the part that I think is important and accurate but incomplete. I agree that your perception of the book isn't an illusion and is just incomplete, however I would say that your perception of the object as a book is a construction of your mind, and hence possibly illusory.
    Im a bit lost myself

    The book could be a 'home' for an ant

    Could you clarify how Thomas The Tank isn't a book


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Agreed. I love Thomas the Tank

    But it's the same book I saw yesterday, and the day before, and for hundreds of previous days in this office, so I am confident it is not illusory.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post
    Synthneusia
    ...I think you'll find that's the queasy feeling people get after listening to too many Rick Wakeman lps in one sitting...

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post
    but it feels like I'm seperated from the rest of the universe by an impossibly thin transparent membrane. I can see though it.. touch though it.. but I'm never actually "being there"
    Oh, I see what's happened. You've fallen into a condom.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post

    Try and describe to me.. the scent of .. well.. anything..

    There are people out there who have no concept of the colour red.


    Or Deodorant



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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    {snip}
    Stewart, could you do me a HUGE favour?

    Would you please change your sig to "If you're wrong say sorry if you're right shut up"

    It would be a big relief to me, really it would.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Steward, could you do me a HUGE favour?

    Would you please change your sig to "If you're wrong say sorry if you're right shut up"

    It would be a big relief to me, really it would.
    I think you will find stewart isnt spelt with a 'd'

    Ill apologise if i wrong

    If im right I wont mention it again

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Oh, I see what's happened. You've fallen into a condom.
    Well Daddy did say I was his little mistake...

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Or Deodorant
    Yeah your right. I don't have any concept of deoderant. I use it.. but it's just a short sharp blast of cold , slightly damp, air under the armpits after a shower. If someone substituted it for a can of compressed air.. I doubt I'd ever realise.

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    I think you will find stewart isnt spelt with a 'd'
    Yeah, typo; sorry; fixed it.
    Ill apologise if i wrong

    If im right I wont mention it again
    No wrong or right; just asking you to release me from torture...

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    watch out ...because when you die and wake up in HELL (next to a burning lake of fire) it'll be STEWART38 TALK RADIO - ALL DAY ALL THE TIME. Tanoy speakers are located every 3 metres for your convenience - have a nice stay

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    Re: Why do we end up arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Could you clarify how Thomas The Tank isn't a book
    Try and imagine that you can't read or write, that you've never seen writing even, and you've lived in the Amazon rain forest all your life and never had any outside contact. Then someone presents you with what this thing with squiggles in that opens up and has these thin, flat things in it.

    You wouldn't know it as a book (Thomas the Tank or otherwise). It would just be an object - still made up of atoms, space, etc. but you wouldn't have the concept of "book" to relate to it. The concept of book is something that we learn from each other, it's a human creation. the object exisits, but is only the object "book" when someone perceives it as such.

    OK, I'm giving myself a headache now

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