Should you use intermediate moves on beginners?

[Steven666]

A taxi dancer at a venue recently told me that they were, um, told off in public for using intermediate moves on a beginner.

So should intermediate moves be used on (complete) beginners, even if you know they would cope with it, even if to just give them a taster?

[Twirly]

Had all sorts of moves used on me from the day I started by other dancers. Was a bit stressful to start with, but also it stretched and challenged me and I think made me a better dancer in the long run. Can't remember what the taxi's did however... maybe they should stick to beginner moves?

I still get all sorts of moves I don't recognise used on me, so nothing has really changed!

But I guess that, as in all things dance-wise, it probably depends on the skill of the lead in assessing the skill of the follow...

[David Bailey]

A taxi dancer at a venue recently told me that they were, um, told off in public for using intermediate moves on a beginner.

Depends on the context. If they were on duty at the time, then yes, you could make a case that the taxi should focus on re-inforcing the lesson by focussing on using the moves taught in that class.

On the other hand, one could also make a case for saying that a large part of teaching beginner followers is showing them that they don't need to know any moves, they just need to know how to follow.

So should intermediate moves be used on (complete) beginners, even if you know they would cope with it, even if to just give them a taster?

As a general principle, in a social dance situation, then leaders should lead any moves to any partner, if they can lead that move well. If they can't lead it well, then no, they shouldn't lead it on beginners. For example, it took me about a year or more to lead cross-body travelling returns well - when I was learning how to do them, I tried them with experienced leads only. But now I can lead these on pretty much anyone.

In a taxi-dancer-on-duty situation, it's slightly different though, as I said above.

[ducasi]

Depends what the "intermediate" moves are.

I occasionally see people "teaching" beginners drops and lifts which are way too advanced for them, but they are too inexperienced to know. If it were my venue, and one of my taxis doing it, I'd sack them.

That said, normal moves, in regular dancing – no problem, just so long as they can manage them. But taxi dancers need to take extra care they make each beginner feel good about what they can do, not bad about what they can't.

[Gav]

For example, it took me about a year or more to lead cross-body travelling returns well.

What's one of them then?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Depends on if the beginner can follw and as DJ said, how well you can lead.

I have danced with people who have never danced a single MJ step before and have been able to follow as if they have been dancing years. Then on the other hand I have danced with people who have been dancing 5 years and they have not got a clue and have ended up doing beginner moves just to get the dance over and done with ASAP.

Something I hate seeing though, as said above, is dancers teaching beginners drops etc, esp on their first week or so. I have even seen dance teachers doing drops in their beginners routine.

When I taxi'd I would only do beginners moves with beginners and sometimes non complex variations on them. It all depends on how good the follow is.

As for wether us normal dancers who have been going a few years should just stick to beginners moves with a beginner, I don't think so just depends on the follow.

[David Bailey]

What's one of them then?

Dunno, but they sound cool, don't they?

Oh, OK then.

Start from a Manhattan, then when you lead the follower forward, step to the right, and lead the follower to keep going forward. Once the follower has got about level with you, turn her anti-clockwise - probably whilst keeping her moving, although there are variations. You can then go into another Manhattan if you want, or lots of other fun things

It's basically porting the key component of cross-body salsa into MJ, but with different timing.

I dunno if that's an official Ceroc move - although I've seen it taught in "Latino style" workshops - but I had to work it out myself a few years back.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Lost me at manhatten

[Gav]

Dunno, but they sound cool, don't they?

Sounded better when I didn't know what it was .

[Gav]

Lost me at manhatten

Must've been a rubbish Manhattan then.

[David Franklin]

David - I have to say I'm still confused (although I am one of the worst at following moves from written descriptions, so perhaps it's not surprising).

In particular, what's the difference between a travelling return and a "cross-body" travelling return? (Other than marketing buzzwords, of course ).

[tsh]

sounds to me like the element of surprise, the travelling return seems to be in the middle of the move rather than at the end (as a description, not a criticism!)

Sean

[Gav]

David - I have to say I'm still confused (although I am one of the worst at following moves from written descriptions, so perhaps it's not surprising).

In particular, what's the difference between a travelling return and a "cross-body" travelling return? (Other than marketing buzzwords, of course ).

sounds to me like the element of surprise, the travelling return seems to be in the middle of the move rather than at the end (as a description, not a criticism!)

I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like the hands are probably kept at waist height, therefore not a 'turn' or 'return' in the standard Ceroc sense.

[David Franklin]

sounds to me like the element of surprise

So, it's kind of like the Spanish Inquisition? I guess that would give a Latin link...

The scene: SCD6 - the pros and celebs are having their lesson with Short Shouty Salsa Man(tm):

"Oww!" yelps Flavia, as she is flung across the room. "I wasn't expecting a cross body lead"

"NOBODY expects a cross-body lead" says SSSM. "Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and strange chicken movements; pecking the ground and surprise. That is, our two chief weapons are surprise and bird impressions, added to a mysterious Latin sensuality that makes me irresistable"

{Bruce breaks in: "That'd be the Rohypnol"}.

"AHEM" says SSSM. "Thank you, Bruce. As I was saying: our three chief weapons are surprise, bird impressions, Latin sensuality, and a willingness to use an electric cattle prod for that full grand mal seizure effect."

[cont p94...]

[David Bailey]

In particular, what's the difference between a travelling return and a "cross-body" travelling return? (Other than marketing buzzwords, of course ).

A travelling return takes the follower to the leader's right, but a cross-body lead takes the follower to the leader's left (which is why the leader needs to step to the right).

Oops, re-reading my rubbish description, I see that I managed to omit that rather important detail. Duh... sowwy

[David Franklin]

A travelling return takes the follower to the leader's right, but a cross-body lead takes the follower to the leader's left (which is why the leader needs to step to the right).

Cool - got it now, thanks. (I'm sure I do this from time to time, though not terribly often I suspect).

[David Bailey]

Cool - got it now, thanks. (I'm sure I do this from time to time, though not terribly often I suspect).

Yeah, it's not particularly flashy, but it's quite challenging to do well. It's usually best done with a salsera, who knows how to accentuate the cross-body part of it.

Anyway, in a vain effort to wrench the thread back - that move and its variants is one I'm now happy to lead on anyone, at any level, in social dancing. But when I started working on it, it was difficult for me, and I only used it on the more advanced followers, who could hopefully help me when I screwed it up.

So, you (i.e. all leaders) should only lead moves on beginners, if you are completely confident that you can lead those moves with absolute clarity. And, in that you're more likely to be less-confident with the more complex moves, you should be generally a bit cautious with leading more advanced moves on beginners.

I'd be interested in hearing what the specific intermediate moves were - obviously, leading a beginner into a drop or aerial is nuts.

[Steven666]

I'd be interested in hearing what the specific intermediate moves were - obviously, leading a beginner into a drop or aerial is nuts.

I never got that information nor saw it but I'm pretty cirtain it was nothing too difficult. The person would not be that cruel to poor unsuspecting peeps.

[David Bailey]

I never got that information nor saw it but I'm pretty cirtain it was nothing too difficult. The person would not be that cruel to poor unsuspecting peeps.

Blimey, we should change your tagline to "rumour-monger"

Well, then going back to the OP:

So should intermediate moves be used on (complete) beginners, even if you know they would cope with it, even if to just give them a taster?

Yes - with caveats as above.

[gebandemuishond]

Perhaps if a taxi dancer had taken a beginner for 6 weeks or whatever, and they were asking what the intermediate classes were like, then I think it would be ok for the taxi to lead an intermediate move like a pretzel to give them an idea of the complexity (possibly also, and quite rightly so, putting them off pretzels for life...). Otherwise I think taxi dancers should stick to beginner moves.

On a related topic, should taxis dance the beginner moves 'by the Book' or is a little creative freedom acceptable? E.g. changing the timing slightly, throwing in a little left handed comb etc.

Dan

P.S. I'm also intrigued about these cross body leads. Keith at Revolution dance puts them into every routine I've ever learned from him, although I've not been able to lead them in freestyle. Also, if you're leading the follower forward in a manhattan, is your weight not on your right foot, making stepping to the right difficult?