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Thread: The equivalence of religion and science?

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    Commercial Operator Rocky's Avatar
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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    It was witty, but not funny. I'm puzzled by this drive you have to denigrate Richard Dawkins at every opportunity.
    Richard and I have a family connection going way back that resulted in something happening that I've simply never been able to accept...

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    Science is about understanding the world, religion is about finding meaning in the world.
    Sciences and religions are both about building models of the world that help us decide how to act.

    Quote Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
    My view of religion comes from the evil that religion has performed in the name of God(s).
    Regretfully, evil has also been performed in the name of science and in the name of atheism.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Sciences and religions are both about building models of the world that help us decide how to act.
    I'm not sure how science can tell us, as a people who need to make moral and ethical decisions on a daily basis, how to act.

    It tells us a lot about how the world functions on a physical level. It gives us the ability to devlop new technologies which can change the method of actions we choose. In fact, science* does it's best to avoid making any kind of value judgements.

    I think the goal of religion is primarily to propogate values which allow a society to function with some degree of unification of purpose. To some extent secular law has replaced that need in more modern times which probably explains the loss of some of religions power over the masses, but hundreds of years of religious influence has significant inertia and will only die very hard - if at all.

    Note that science (IMHO) has no place in that role at all. If science is the pursuit of knowledge then it can't in itself be good or evil. It can be put to each purpose equally well by those who understand it, as well as every shade of grey in between. If someone is preaching faith healing over modern medicine, I will consider religion to have overstepped it's natural boundries in that instance.

    *Although to be fair, scientists themselves are not always so diciplined....

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    ...It tells us a lot about how the world functions on a physical level. It gives us the ability to devlop new technologies which can change the method of actions we choose. In fact, science* does it's best to avoid making any kind of value judgements...
    I find that if I accept that evolution rules then I am forced to the conclusion that the first purpose of our lives is to do our best to raise our children to be good parents.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Regretfully, evil has also been performed ... in the name of atheism.
    That doesn't make any sense. There isn't an 'atheism' for people to do anything 'in the name' of it.

    What atheists do is not 'in the name' of atheism.

    What dictators do to suppress religion (or, far more commonly, to suppress one religion) is not 'in the name of atheism', it's in the name of securing and retaining power by removing another power base and keeping the population cowed.

    What particular examples were you thinking of?

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver View Post
    I find that if I accept that evolution rules then I am forced to the conclusion that the first purpose of our lives is to do our best to raise our children to be good parents.
    True, but of course homo sapiens sapiens is the first life-form in the solar system to be able to step outside evolution. It cannot do so entirely, but to take single example infertility no longer wholly prevents women giving birth, nor men fathering (in the biological sense) children.

    Therefore we are able to choose what type of life we live - a nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw, devil take the hindmost life, or a nurturing, caring one. Or somewhere in between.

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    Registered User RedFox's Avatar
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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Some call it the 'big bang' some call it 'let there be light' same thing
    Except that the Big Bang requires 1 improbable event; 'let there be light' requires 2 (the creation of a God and the creation of the universe)...

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    *Although to be fair, scientists themselves are not always so diciplined....
    Oh I think you'll find that some of us specialise in discipline...

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    Except that the Big Bang requires 1 improbable event; 'let there be light' requires 2 (the creation of a God and the creation of the universe)...
    Excellent point. And simply made (I'm envious).

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I'm not sure how science can tell us, as a people who need to make moral and ethical decisions on a daily basis, how to act.
    I didn't say it could. I said it could help us. For example, consider social interaction. The scientific model of Game Theory can help me decide how to act towards my fellow human beings. Similarly, the religious model of Karma can help me decide how to act towards my fellow human beings.
    Another example: consider hygiene. The scientific model of the Germ Theory of Disease can help me decide how to stay healthy. Similarly, the religious model of Obeying Leviticus to Please God can help me decide how to stay healthy.

    Personally I find Karma a more useful model than Game Theory, and Germ Theory a more useful model than Leviticus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    What particular examples were you thinking of {of evil atheist acts}?
    I was thinking of state atheism in various countries. I'm also aware of killers who have claimed to be acting in the name of atheism.

    In most cases, such evil acts have been done in the name of specific atheistic beliefs or sets of beliefs. For example:
    * The belief that all religions are a negative force in the world.
    * The belief that all religions are superstitious and backwards.
    * The belief that all religions are outsider ideas.
    * The belief that all religions are untrue.
    * The belief that all religions are valueless.

    In some cases, evil acts have been performed in the name of atheism in general. As you correctly observe, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Regretfully, people don't always act in ways that make sense, and the religious do not have a monopoly on irrational behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    The Big Bang requires 1 improbable event; 'let there be light' requires 2 (the creation of a God and the creation of the universe)...
    The creation of the universe, given the existence of a God that wishes to create a universe, is not improbable. Thus both theories require one event that people may find improbable.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I was thinking of state atheism in various countries. I'm also aware of killers who have claimed to be acting in the name of atheism.

    In most cases, such evil acts have been done in the name of specific atheistic beliefs or sets of beliefs. For example:
    * The belief that all religions are a negative force in the world.
    * The belief that all religions are superstitious and backwards.
    * The belief that all religions are outsider ideas.
    * The belief that all religions are untrue.
    * The belief that all religions are valueless.

    In some cases, evil acts have been performed in the name of atheism in general. As you correctly observe, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Regretfully, people don't always act in ways that make sense, and the religious do not have a monopoly on irrational behaviour.
    Thanks, Martin, but that was so vague as to be of no help whatsoever. I have no way of knowing whether you are thinking of things which I too, on reflection, would consider 'in the name of atheism', or whether I would argue my point that there was a different justification.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by batnurse View Post
    Oh I think you'll find that some of us specialise in discipline...
    Ohh, matron!

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Thanks, Martin, but that was so vague as to be of no help whatsoever.
    I thought "state atheism" was specific enough. It's only occurred three times to my knowledge: Albania, the Soviet Union, and the People's Republic of China.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Now here's an organisation that's crying out for Barry to join.
    Society of the Godless - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    sometimes known as the Union of Belligerent Atheists.

    Pity it was wound up in 1947.
    Last edited by John S; 25th-January-2008 at 01:35 AM. Reason: what the hell!

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I thought "state atheism" was specific enough. It's only occurred three times to my knowledge: Albania, the Soviet Union, and the People's Republic of China.
    The church has always had tremendous power and influence so surely a state that wants control either; tries to abolish it (communists) or tries to befriend it (nazis). I don't see how this is about religion OR atheism, rather its about government power.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    Except that the Big Bang requires 1 improbable event; 'let there be light' requires 2 (the creation of a God and the creation of the universe)...
    To your first point: As far as I understand it, those that believe in God, would assert that God has always existed. The concept of time began with the creation of the Universe, but as God is outside the Universe the concept of what was 'before' does not exist. Our understanding of time conditions us to the concept of 'beginnings' which is why we can understand the concept of the beginning of the Universe. Once you imagine a realm without time the concept of always 'being' is possible. Therefore your suggestion that God being created was an 'improbable' event is meaningless.

    To your 2nd point: Scientists say that Cosmic Background Radiation is evidence of the Big Bang. Yet this is not direct evidence of the Big Bang because science also accepts that the Universe could not have begun from a singualarity in this way. That's why science fudges it by concentrating on the moments AFTER the Big Bang. So how can you have direct evidence of something that could not have existed?

    And here we are again: The equivalence of science and religion. Science says the evidence that religion offers cannot prove something that doesn't exist AND then in return offers evidence of something it also proves cannot exist. No difference.

    Nice to get back to the thread title isn't it?

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    The church has always had tremendous power and influence so surely a state that wants control either; tries to abolish it (communists) or tries to befriend it (nazis). I don't see how this is about religion OR atheism, rather its about government power.
    Karl Marx said "religion is the opiate of the people". That's an atheistic belief. State atheism was instituted in the name of that atheistic belief, and was occasionally evil in nature.

    Atheists make excuses for State Atheism in precisely the same way that Christians make excuses for the Inquisition and Buddhists make excuses for Bhutan and Scientists make excuses for Social Darwinism. They convince themselves, I guess.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    I thought "state atheism" was specific enough. It's only occurred three times to my knowledge: Albania, the Soviet Union, and the People's Republic of China.
    Yes but the "state atheism" (Communism) in each case was a belief system* in all but name: sacrosanct texts, inviolable commandments, restrictive language, identified heresies, and so on. The USSR even had its own variation on Christ (Lenin) and holy sites of pilgrimage aplenty (Lenin's Tomb, Stalin's Hut, the Aurora). It may have been non-divine, but it was a belief system where rational thought was secondary.


    For China, substitute Mao for Lenin. For Albania, substitute in Norman Wisdom instead .

    *Using the term "belief system" to avoid offending religious folk, and to point out the disinformation inherent in describing the state attitudes of these countries as "atheism".

    Edit: hadn't read Martin's last post - this is basically descending again into an argument about what the term "atheism" means. I understand it to mean something like "an aversion to belief systems", religious or otherwise.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Karl Marx said "religion is the opiate of the people". That's an atheistic belief.
    No he didn't and no it isn't. He said, in context: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. "

    So although "opium of the people" on its own, as its often quoted, sounds like a negative comment on religion - in actual fact the whole sentence is quite poetic and suggests that religion is what gives life meaning for people.

    [State atheism was instituted in the name of that atheistic belief, and was occasionally evil in nature
    There is no such thing as atheistic belief, but states have tried to eradicate religion - as I said before thats about power and control (and as StuartM said, its wrapped up in a particular belief system of its own). The fact that these states performed very evil acts is not connected to "atheism" - even if "atheism" was a thing...which of course it isn't - it's just a label.

    Atheists make excuses for State Atheism in precisely the same way that Christians make excuses for the Inquisition and Buddhists make excuses for Bhutan and Scientists make excuses for Social Darwinism. They convince themselves, I guess.
    Hmm I read "state atheism" as just another way of saying "secular democracy" which is what all "western democracies" have. This is just and right; the state should NOT be religious so that the populace can have any religion they want with no bias and feel marginalised by a state sponsored religion.

    Eradication of religion in a country is a different thing, it is an active process to force people to live a certain way, but it has nothing to do with atheism - as atheism is a negative, simply a lack of belief or denial in gods. Thats certainly one thing you cannot force on anybody - without extensive brainwashing anyway.

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    Re: The equivalence of religion and science?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    To your 2nd point: Scientists say that Cosmic Background Radiation is evidence of the Big Bang. Yet this is not direct evidence of the Big Bang because science also accepts that the Universe could not have begun from a singualarity in this way. That's why science fudges it by concentrating on the moments AFTER the Big Bang. So how can you have direct evidence of something that could not have existed?

    And here we are again: The equivalence of science and religion. Science says the evidence that religion offers cannot prove something that doesn't exist AND then in return offers evidence of something it also proves cannot exist. No difference.
    You are mixing two different questions up.
    How did the big bang happen?
    Did the the big bang happen?
    They are not the same. You are claiming 'denial' when in fact it's ignorance.

    Science accepts it cannot currently explain how the big bang occurred (outside some bleeding edge, more or less unsubstantuated string/quantum gravity theories). Science also accepts it has no evidence, direct or otherwise, that might indicate how the big bang occurred.
    That is (the 'how' question) irrelevant to the different question of 'Did the big bang occur'. To which there is direct evidence (directly related to the fact in dispute) via background radiation, expansion of universe etc.

    Science would argue that although it cannot prove 'how' the big bang occurred, it has accumulated more than enough evidence, direct, circumstantial and indirect, to prove the big bang did occur. I guess it's up to the individual whether they believe it or not...

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