Removing returns from beginner routines.

[Andy McGregor]

Where has anyone said that there is a move to remove returns from beginners classes to make the dance "easier"?

If that isn't the objective why are the returns being dropped? We've talked about not returning when the the next move starts with an anti-clockwise turn. But that's a very different thing from dropping returns from beginners routines. And that is what I thought people were reporting is happening. I've no idea what's going on at Ceroc classes in the beginners lesson as I haven't seen a beginners lesson at a Ceroc class for many years.

[Jamie]

Although it would be good to know the Ceroc Teachers footwork!

It's no secret, just pay £7 (or £8 depending on location) and turn up at a Ceroc night and see

[Billy Cullen]

[QUOTE=DavidJames;445540

But I'm fairly sure it ignored all my comments.[/QUOTE]

David I read all your comments and gave a full and detail explination.

[Billy Cullen]

It's no secret, just pay £7 (or £8 depending on location) and turn up at a Ceroc night and see

Thanks for your kind offer Jamie, I'm sure they are worth every penny.

[David Bailey]

David I read all your comments and gave a full and detail explination.

Ummm, I still didn't understand it. Maybe I'm very very stupid?

But to repeat, I don't understand why you think any turn in MJ (turn, not spin) should have a proscribed foot to step back on. Surely the collect point at the end of the turn provides the opportunity to determine weight change?

And surely a decent leader should lead a weight change at that point, if required, so that the follower steps in the direction led, and on the foot led? What am I missing?

Or are you saying that it's impossible to lead (for example) a return followed by a manhatten? Because, I have to tell you, I do that all the time...

[MartinHarper]

Billy, you need to visit a dictionary and refresh your memory on the difference between "will" and "should" or "ought to". Your repeated misuse of "will" has the effect of making you sound completely divorced from reality, thus encouraging people to waste time correcting your provably false statements.

[NZ Monkey]

But to repeat, I don't understand why you think any turn in MJ (turn, not spin) should have a proscribed foot to step back on. Surely the collect point at the end of the turn provides the opportunity to determine weight change?

And surely a decent leader should lead a weight change at that point, if required, so that the follower steps in the direction led, and on the foot led? What am I missing?

While I'm not trying to defend Billy in any way here, I don't think it's quite that easy all the time.

Specifically, if you finish a return in an open position with a single hand hold then there isn't much you can do as a leader to stop your partner stepping back on the "wrong" foot if she's conditioned herself to it. While a decent leader can then lead a weight change somehow, it still leaves the question of whether they should have needed to in the fist place.

Very few woman actually do this of course, as it feels quite unnatural. It's a consequence of the "no footwork" attitude that a minority will wind up habitually doing something odd if nobody tells them otherwise from the beginning however.

There are plenty of turns or spins that can be set up so moving any other way is very difficult and so the leader really can lead the weight change. There are also very skilled followers who can coose which foot to hold their weight on in something like a blues throwout, which is not the easiest thing in the world to do well. They're not the ones having problems with returns

[ducasi]

If that isn't the objective why are the returns being dropped? We've talked about not returning when the the next move starts with an anti-clockwise turn. But that's a very different thing from dropping returns from beginners routines. And that is what I thought people were reporting is happening. I've no idea what's going on at Ceroc classes in the beginners lesson as I haven't seen a beginners lesson at a Ceroc class for many years.

I don't think so.

I haven't seen anyone advocating or reporting all returns being dropped from a beginners' class.

[Whitebeard]

.... I haven't seen anyone advocating or reporting all returns being dropped from a beginners' class.

Nor have I (on my two nightly weeks where I still partake in the beginners class) except where the following move starts with an anticlockwise return, when is heard the admonition 'stop'.

In class, followers are regularly reminded that a clockwise spin/turn is followed by an anti-clockwise spin/return as part of the regular structure of the dance and to allow for an 'unwind'. ('Stop' can also mean gather up the lady's left hand for a double-handed move.)

Except, that is, when evil leaders in the heat of the dance deliberately lead double or muliple spins/turns as a challenge where, perhaps, involvement and eye contact may be lacking ;-) I do it myself, and it usually does the trick. Well, evil followers encourage evil leaders, ya knaw. And never more than thrice to be sure.

[martingold]

Or are you saying that it's impossible to lead (for example) a return followed by a manhatten? Because, I have to tell you, I do that all the time...

ooooh theres one i am going to have a go at stealing

[Martin]

Ummm, I still didn't understand it. Maybe I'm very very stupid?

But to repeat, I don't understand why you think any turn in MJ (turn, not spin) should have a proscribed foot to step back on. Surely the collect point at the end of the turn provides the opportunity to determine weight change?

And surely a decent leader should lead a weight change at that point, if required, so that the follower steps in the direction led, and on the foot led? What am I missing?

Or are you saying that it's impossible to lead (for example) a return followed by a manhatten? Because, I have to tell you, I do that all the time...

Hi DavidJames,

I think you are talking at a higher level.

BASIC "spin" and step back, in a beginner class - I guess is where Billy is coming from.

Many people ask in beginner classes "What foot do I step back on" - so they need a starting point.

I do see where you are coming from DavidJames and I fully understand what you are saying, the thing is you are a very experienced dancer, with understanding of weight changes, turns and not spins, collection points and adapting a simple move into a manhatten, which is not necc the "standard taught way" (in beginners) - all good stuff and bread and butter to the more advanced dancer.

It might be a bit harder to get this across to a total beginner in a class.

[David Bailey]

Hi DavidJames,

I think you are talking at a higher level.

Story of my life

BASIC "spin" and step back, in a beginner class - I guess is where Billy is coming from.

Yeah, fair enough.

I guess, like a lot of other controversies, people (like me) react strongly when someone says "this is The Only Way" in a definitive manner - when that is almost always incorrect. There are usually alternatives.

I think I'll try a few returns with different dancers of different levels, and see what happens...

[Billy Cullen]

BASIC "spin" and step back, in a beginner class - I guess is where Billy is coming from.

Yes, that it exactly.

[jemessex]

I am not saying the following is correct or incorrect but the teachers at the local venues I dance at teach the beginners during the 'warm-up' session before the lesson the principles on basic turning and spinning.
ACW = stepping in with left and stepping back with left
CW = stepping in with right and stepping back with right.

They add /remove returns where they feel it is more natural in the routine they are teaching whether it is the beginners or intermediates lesson

[martingold]

I am not saying the following is correct or incorrect but the teachers at the local venues I dance at teach the beginners during the 'warm-up' session before the lesson the principles on basic turning and spinning.
ACW = stepping in with left and stepping back with left
CW = stepping in with right and stepping back with right.

They add /remove returns where they feel it is more natural in the routine they are teaching whether it is the beginners or intermediates lesson

by this do you mean ACW= spin on your right foot then step back on left and CW= spin on left then step back on right as thats the opposite to the way we are taught
hence
ACW= step back on right spin on left then step back on left
CW = step back on left spin on right then step back on right
ie spin on the left foot if spinning to the left and vice versa

[jemessex]

no I mean as it says.
ACW = step onto left to spin and step back with left

[jemessex]

ACW= step back on right spin on left then step back on left
CW = step back on left spin on right then step back on right

I have never tried to spin or turn whilst stepping back and my weight on back foot...but hey...what do I know...am only a normal club standard dancer...not a teacher or taxi dancer

[martingold]

I have never tried to spin or turn whilst stepping back and my weight on back foot...but hey...what do I know...am only a normal club standard dancer...not a teacher or taxi dancer

Sorry jem i did mean to step back in and i wasnt saying what you are taught was wrong because if you go to the teacher i think you do he is very good
i was just interested in different ways of doing things

[Billy Cullen]

provably false statements.

My suggestion is you read the earler posts, this may help!
Post 2, Post 10, Post 18, Post 25, Post 26, Post 37, Post 41 and all my posts.

[Lou]

But to repeat, I don't understand why you think any turn in MJ (turn, not spin) should have a proscribed foot to step back on.

DJ, that's not like you. I'm sure you didn't mean forbidden footwork.

Or has Andy McG hacked into your account?