Removing returns from beginner routines.

[David Bailey]

[/INDENT]As I've demonstrated above Martin but we appear to be wrong. According to Billy.

Yes (that is, you're right, Billy is wrong).

In MJ, a return is a turn, with a collect at the end - that collect gives an opportunity for the follower to change weight.

But in truth, the follower I dance with will, assuming I'm leading correctly, step back on the foot I want them to step back on. Or forward, or sideways for that matter. That's why it's called, you know, leading.

So whilst it's arguably more natural to step back on the foot that's doing the travelling - so back on right if turning to the right, back on left if turning to the left - it's all totally lead-dependant.

A couple of obvious counter examples are if I want to lead a manhattan from a return, or lead a cross-body travelling return. In both cases, I'd want the follower to back on their right foot, even though they'd be turning to their left. And in both cases, I should darn well lead that footwork (and that transfer of weight) - if I don't lead it, then what am I doing trying to lead those steps in the first place?

If there's no lead, then the follower can do whatever the hell they want. Go off and make a cup of tea, perhaps.

[Billy Cullen]

Yes (that is, you're right, Billy is wrong).

In MJ, a return is a turn, with a collect at the end - that collect gives an opportunity for the follower to change weight.

1) A turn is to the Right
2) And a return is to the Left,
Both of these components make the turn and return.

The "turn", and "return" is a major components of the dance, if the dancer has no grasp of the basics in turns and returns when added to the moves or not adding to moves this will result in wrong footing the girl.

One of the basic principles of the "turn" and "return"
Left foot is forward turn left, break (Right) step back left,
to the Right, right foot forward, turn right, break (Left) step back (Right).

From a Change of place to a Catapult you would not add a return. As a return would wrong foot the girl?

The reason for this is the Catapult is back on the (Right), her directional turn is to the (Left) stepping on the left to turn left.
Not stepping (Right) to turn Left.

If she started back (Left) she would be on the wrong foot, then she would have to make a compensating step to get back to the Left to turn Left.

The other common factors are you step back on the foot that you are spinning on, e.g., as the other foot is placed at the side of the spinning foot hence making the (break).

The timing is: Step back, Spin, Break, Step Back.

With this basic principle the leader can decide which foot should be back for the lady, eg, if it is the ladies (right foot) he need back then he will use a turn (which is always to the right), and if it’s the left foot he wants back he can add the return (which is always to the Left).

Using the simple principle will keep the lady’s footwork correct, when he is moving on to the next move.

e.g. (a catapult) the lady will have her Right foot back as her directional turn is to the left, she is moving on to her left as the weight is on the back foot (Right).


I’m glad you don’t want me to explain a five bar riff, or a waltz time step.

[Billy Cullen]

A turn and return will have a collection at the end, (the break) to spin on the left, break right, and step back right, would be very odd as her directional spin will always be to her (Left) in that case, using your example.

[Billy Cullen]

I'd want the follower to back on their right foot, even though they'd be turning to their left.

That is correct, the follower will have the weight on the right to go left, or spin left.

[Andy McGregor]

1)I’m glad you don’t want me to explain a five bar riff, or a waltz time step.

How about something more simple. Your version of the first move footwork for ladies? Beat by beat from the start of an eight beat phrase? We've done this many times before but you're relatively new blood on here - plus I've recently been told, in a very agressive and strident way, that, according to the LeRoc syllabus, I teach the First Move completely wrongly

[timbp]

How about something more simple. Your version of the first move footwork for ladies? Beat by beat from the start of an eight beat phrase? We've done this many times before but you're relatively new blood on here - plus I've recently been told, in a very agressive and strident way, that, according to the LeRoc syllabus, I teach the First Move completely wrongly

As taught at the classes I go to (first move and return):

Count: &1&2&3&4&5&6&7&8
Feet: LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLR

The follower is also moving back and forth and pivoting and turning at various times, but that is a matter of lead/follow, not footwork.

[Andy McGregor]

As taught at the classes I go to (first move and return):

Count: &1&2&3&4&5&6&7&8
Feet: LRLRLRLRLRLRLRLR

The follower is also moving back and forth and pivoting and turning at various times, but that is a matter of lead/follow, not footwork.

So where does the lady step back right on the pivot-left-step-back-right turn out? Is it beat 4 or beat 6? Or is the first & on your count beat 8 of the previous phrase? Please note, I'm counting musical beats to add to the confusion.

[Billy Cullen]

How about something more simple. Your version of the first move footwork for ladies? Beat by beat from the start of an eight beat phrase? We've done this many times before but you're relatively new blood on here - plus I've recently been told, in a very agressive and strident way, that, according to the LeRoc syllabus, I teach the First Move completely wrongly

The T&R footwork, remains the same, I understand that the moves have variations but one thing is constant, is the T&R.

I don't work from the LeRoc syllabus, in fact I don't know what the syllabus contains for me to make comment on it, although I do understand that a turn & return is a common element, to all MJ.

I'm sure your first move is fine.

Removing returns from beginners routines - Your stripping the dance if a major component.

[timbp]

So where does the lady step back right on the pivot-left-step-back-right turn out? Is it beat 4 or beat 6? Or is the first & on your count beat 8 of the previous phrase? Please note, I'm counting musical beats to add to the confusion.

I don't know. I'm not a follower.
I guess she steps back when I lead her to (and I can't tell you when that is unless you give me a woman to handle and some music to dance to).

Yes, the & is 8 of the previous phrase (I don't count that way myself [when I count]), but I was posting about what happens in the classes I go to.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm sure your first move is fine.

Thank you. I'm sure my first move is fine too

I'm pretty sure that the lady who told me off about the way I teach is not a reader. She's never mentioned the forum and we are a small, but select and beautiful community I brought up my telling of to highlight that not everyone is teaching MJ the same way - and, I suppose to vent some steam, because none of us like to be told off, especially when it's undeserved

[Andy McGregor]

Removing returns from beginners routines - Your stripping the dance if a major component.

The easier we make the dance the more people the dance will retain. However, there is a point where it stops being the dance it was. Removing the returns is that point, IMO.

I constantly look for better and better ways of teaching MJ. Better and clearer ways of teaching moves and parts of moves. I do not think a better way of teaching MJ is to change the dance so it's easier to learn. That is what I think those who remove returns from beginners moves are doing.

However, there are people who regard retention of dancers as a greater priority than teaching the dance. They are in it for the money. This is a very laudable objective and to be applauded. Making the dance even more simple will retain more people, and they will return with their £8 week after week. But they will have received less dance training. This is not a route I am currently taking and it is not a route many people independent of Ceroc are taking - perhaps that's why we chose our particular route.

[Billy Cullen]

Thank you. I'm sure my first move is fine too

Although it would be good to know the Ceroc Teachers footwork!

"I am a bit of a free spirit not being bound by rules" get out of jail card could be used!

[Dan Hudson]

.

I like returns so i say keep them in

From memory... you luuuurrrrve returns

[Andy McGregor]

Although it would be good to know the Ceroc Teachers footwork!

OOH! OOH! Sir, SIR! I know the answer to this one. Ceroc teachers say that footwork doesn't matter.

[Billy Cullen]

The easier we make the dance the more people the dance will retain. However, there is a point where it stops being the dance it was. Removing the returns is that point, IMO.

I do agree with you on that Andy, I feel that teachers of the dance have to give it some respect, as you have mentioned, I think you can fall into a trap of butchering the basic principles, to a digree that you end up with nothing.

I was shocked to find that the T&R was even under consideration for the chop.

[Billy Cullen]

OOH! OOH! Sir, SIR! I know the answer to this one. Ceroc teachers say that footwork doesn't matter.

Andy, I can just see you licking your lips, finger tips at the ready.

5-4-3-2-1 blast off.

[timbp]

The easier we make the dance the more people the dance will retain. However, there is a point where it stops being the dance it was. Removing the returns is that point, IMO.

I didn't think removing returns would make the dance easier.

In the classes I go to, in the beginner class usually each move ends with a return. It is basically the punctuation between moves.
In the intermediate class, moves are more poorly defined and there may be no returns in the whole routine.

For a beginner leader, if he can remember what goes between one return and the next, then he has something to lead on the dance floor.
If you take out the returns, then he has to either remember the entire pattern, or break up the pattern and just do the bits he can remember (which may be the steps between one [deleted] return and the next).
While breaking up the pattern may help him become a better dancer sooner (although I'm not convinced of that), giving him a pattern of several moves to learn in one go may mean he never comes back.

[ducasi]

Where has anyone said that there is a move to remove returns from beginners classes to make the dance "easier"?

I don't see anyone advocating dropping returns to make the dance easier, only where it is appropriate to make the dance smoother.

[David Bailey]

{ snip, umm, explanation }
I’m glad you don’t want me to explain a five bar riff, or a waltz time step.

I really don't - I couldn't even understand that description.

But I'm fairly sure it ignored all my comments.

[timbp]

Where has anyone said that there is a move to remove returns from beginners classes to make the dance "easier"?

I don't see anyone advocating dropping returns to make the dance easier, only where it is appropriate to make the dance smoother.

Sorry. I must have misunderstood something someone wrote. On a quick scroll back I can't find what I was responding to.

Although I can't find the post, I still think I read somewhere (maybe on an unrelated email list) someone suggesting dropping returns would be easier for beginners.