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Thread: Removing returns from beginner routines.

  1. #61
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Jamie could you post your version of the ladies footwork on a turn and a return.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Andy McGregor teaches a different footwork pattern, which Nigel Anderson adopted from the LeRoc danced in the Brighton area. It's more versatile and easier to learn, but it's not as pretty as Michel's, and it's not as infallible as Andy thinks it is. For instance, I've had to put tripple steps in at times when dancing it.
    That triple step's probably required during the transition between the natural footwork I teach and the skippetty, hoppity, kickeddy footwork that some people teach.

    When I started learning MJ in Brighton the LeRoc footwork was a ladies back left beat one followed by a skippetty, hoppity, kickeddy and tappety sort of footwork. I don't think Nigel based his RLRL in the open hand hold on anything taught by Brighton LeRoc - the only source he's mentioned to me is Bug. I had to agree with Nigel after observing what 99%* of female MJ dancers actually do on the dance floor.

    At a dance I ran on Saturday night this was about 98.67% as two of the 150 ladies were doing the back left on beat 1 thing. They were both LeRoc Federation trained teachers (last week, when I visited her class to give her free tickets to a dance one of the pair told me off in a very stroppy and strident way about the way I teach the first move - apparently the LeRoc syllabus dictates that the lady first steps back left on beat one and the turn out/step back right is on beat 4 - my answer was that I understood that the LeRoc Federation accept that there's more than one way to dance MJ - apparently I'm wrong about that too).

    On the subject of returns, I think these belong in beginners routines. They get people to practice turning and returning as well as all the other things people have said on this thread. I do leave out the returns if there's a turn to the left at the start of the next move - for instance the windmill. I teach a half-windmill as a beginners move: preceding it with a return would mean the lady turns 3 times in the same direction with only a back-step separating the first and second turns.

  3. #63
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I've never done a windmill – and only rarely done a half-windmill. I don't feel that I've missed out on much.
    yeah we used to be taught the half windmill in beginners lessons
    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I agree though that the sway should be a beginner's move.

    I'm not sure what a lady-spin is.
    Ladyspin is a right hand move where the leader making a cup with the right hand then the follower creates a fist with their right hand in the cup the guy then spins her

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post

    Anyway, he said you shouldn't use a return before those moves. A return after them is a different matter.
    oops mental note to self learn to read

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    When I started learning MJ in Brighton the LeRoc footwork was a ladies back left beat one followed by a skippetty, hoppity, kickeddy and tappety sort of footwork. I don't think Nigel based his RLRL in the open hand hold on anything taught by Brighton LeRoc - the only source he's mentioned to me is Bug. I had to agree with Nigel after observing what 99%* of female MJ dancers actually do on the dance floor.
    Ah. My mistake. When I came down to visit you that time, a couple of the ladies in the class told me that they'd been taught the Right Foot back in local classes, which I'd assumed were the local LeRoc ones at the time. With hindsight, they could've been referring to Nigel's classes.

    apparently the LeRoc syllabus dictates that the lady first steps back left on beat one and the turn out/step back right is on beat 4
    Actually, the step back is on Beat 5 (MJ Count 3). The lady will be pivoting with her weight on her left foot on beat 4.

    - my answer was that I understood that the LeRoc Federation accept that there's more than one way to dance MJ - apparently I'm wrong about that too).
    I'm sure you had that conversation with John Eastman too. And I thought the answer was that you could teach any footwork, so long as it was consistent. The RLRL footwork certainly would be appropriate.

    On the subject of returns, I think these belong in beginners routines. They get people to practice turning and returning as well as all the other things people have said on this thread. I do leave out the returns if there's a turn to the left at the start of the next move - for instance the windmill.
    Which also sounds perfectly fair to me.

    I teach a half-windmill as a beginners move: preceding it with a return would mean the lady turns 3 times in the same direction with only a back-step separating the first and second turns.
    Exactly. Although it's not the amount of turns involved - it's where they come. The backstep that separates the two turns is key to this. That's why it feels OK to put in multiple spins, or a double return, or the 2 turns that comprise the Half Windmill. There's no break between those turns. However, once the Follower has finished a Return and stepped back it's completed, so the first turn in the Half Windmill feels weird.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Ah. My mistake. When I came down to visit you that time, a couple of the ladies in the class told me that they'd been taught the Right Foot back in local classes, which I'd assumed were the local LeRoc ones at the time. With hindsight, they could've been referring to Nigel's classes.
    I think that's likely. To confuse matters even more, the Brighton LeRoc classes nowadays teach West Coast Swing, I'm not even sure if they still teach MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Actually, the step back is on Beat 5 (MJ Count 3). The lady will be pivoting with her weight on her left foot on beat 4.
    Are you saying I got my telling off from someone who'd got it wrong? Surely not

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    I'm sure you had that conversation with John Eastman too. And I thought the answer was that you could teach any footwork, so long as it was consistent. The RLRL footwork certainly would be appropriate.
    Yes, it was John who told me this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Which also sounds perfectly fair to me.


    Exactly. Although it's not the amount of turns involved - it's where they come. The backstep that separates the two turns is key to this. That's why it feels OK to put in multiple spins, or a double return, or the 2 turns that comprise the Half Windmill. There's no break between those turns. However, once the Follower has finished a Return and stepped back it's completed, so the first turn in the Half Windmill feels weird.
    The problem I find is that experienced dancers will put in the return when you teach the move prior to your planned windmill etc. Then they have to take out the return when you add in the windmill etc. I find it helps if you actually say "no return" in the count when you've got as far as the move before a move that starts with an anti-clockwise turn - the guys who are doing the return are doing it as you're saying they shouldn't be, which results in the odd titter

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    Ladyspin is a right hand move where the leader making a cup with the right hand then the follower creates a fist with their right hand in the cup the guy then spins her
    This is also called the American spin and the Cerocspin.

    The modern way of doing doesn't have the cup and fist. I find the whole fist thing a bit ham-fisted and more difficult for the lady to follow. In the more up to date version the guy uses his left hand on the lady's wrist to spin the lady.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Are you saying I got my telling off from someone who'd got it wrong? Surely not
    I can't say that. I wasn't there! All I can say with 100% certainty is that the step back is on beat 5.

    I find it helps if you actually say "no return" in the count when you've got as far as the move before a move that starts with an anti-clockwise turn - the guys who are doing the return are doing it as you're saying they shouldn't be, which results in the odd titter
    That's because they're expecting to put in an anticlockwise turn. They know one is needed, and it would normally be a Return. It's automatic. That's why it's good to warn them to expect the unexpected.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This is also called the American spin and the Cerocspin.

    The modern way of doing doesn't have the cup and fist. I find the whole fist thing a bit ham-fisted and more difficult for the lady to follow. In the more up to date version the guy uses his left hand on the lady's wrist to spin the lady.
    when i was learning we used to do the american spin as well as the ladyspin i do agree it can seem a bit ham-fisted but when its done properly i like it and some teachers still say this starts or finishes like a lady spin

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This is also called the American spin and the Cerocspin.

    The modern way of doing doesn't have the cup and fist. I find the whole fist thing a bit ham-fisted and more difficult for the lady to follow. In the more up to date version the guy uses his left hand on the lady's wrist to spin the lady.
    Someone said the lady spin is like the Ceroc spin, but without the change of hand. (In a Ceroc spin the guy takes his left hand over his right hand which is leading the prep to lead the pin from the wrist.)

    The few times I have come across the cup and fist thing, I can't say I liked it. Hard to say why.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    The few times I have come across the cup and fist thing, I can't say I liked it. Hard to say why.
    I think it's the fist thing. There's no other move that requires it. Most moves have common components that are joined together to make the move. The fist thing in the American/lady/spin stands alone as far as I can see. It's not natural for a lady to make a fist while she's dancing. Also, you're trying to lead the lady into a spin by applying pressure into her fist which is directed straight at her elbow - this is pretty much a lead for a back-step rather than a spin.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Also, you're trying to lead the lady into a spin by applying pressure into her fist which is directed straight at her elbow - this is pretty much a lead for a back-step rather than a spin.
    very good point

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Also, you're trying to lead the lady into a spin by applying pressure into her fist which is directed straight at her elbow - this is pretty much a lead for a back-step rather than a spin.
    And if you keep this pressure up and rotate the pressure clockwise, they are back on the right foot and spin clockwise...

    Well that is the theory, depends if you are driving a manual or an automatic

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think it's the fist thing. There's no other move that requires it. Most moves have common components that are joined together to make the move. The fist thing in the American/lady/spin stands alone as far as I can see. It's not natural for a lady to make a fist while she's dancing. Also, you're trying to lead the lady into a spin by applying pressure into her fist which is directed straight at her elbow - this is pretty much a lead for a back-step rather than a spin.
    I take your point Andy, the move is a right handed move the hand hold I use is a hook hand hold where the ladies right hand is hooked within the man's right hand, as the move pulls across to the mans right, the lady's hand unfolds to sit within the ball of the hand, then you execute the spin, the biggest problem is that the lady's tend to stand slightly to the side rather that ladies right shoulder facing, one other common mistake is some ladies don't prep the spin with the right foot, after the spin you can adopt the turn and return footwork as normal.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Well that is the theory, depends if you are driving a manual or an automatic
    I thought we were flying a balloon

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I thought we were flying a balloon
    Nah That is just all the hot air you see... some of us are still on the ground wondering if we should refer to the manual, or go automatic.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    Nah That is just all the hot air you see... some of us are still on the ground wondering if we should refer to the manual, or go automatic.
    There's a manual? Sounds very sexist

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    There's a manual? Sounds very sexist
    Sexist? You lost me on that one....

    Time to change gear...

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    I love a Ladyspin, I prefer it to a Cerocspin. I spin best (clockwise) from a Ladyspin. Cerocspins tend to knock you off balance quicker.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    You will always step back on the foot you are turning on.
    Incorrect. I can turn in both directions on either foot, and I can subsequently step forwards or backwards on either foot.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Incorrect. I can turn in both directions on either foot, and I can subsequently step forwards or backwards on either foot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post

    Having just tested a return *albeit not led, a freespin*:
    Stepping back on the left - Stepping in on my right foot *turning ACW one full turn* - Step back on my left foot.

    Stepping back on my right foot - stepping in on my left foot *turning ACW one full turn* - Step back on my right foot.
    As I've demonstrated above Martin but we appear to be wrong. According to Billy.

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