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Thread: Removing returns from beginner routines.

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I'm sorry, Lou, that you feel return-less dancing to be in-elegant. I feel the same way about dancing with lots of returns – as you said, it can make the dance feel (and look) stilted.
    Just to clarify - I meant it's inelegant if Returns are put in where they shouldn't be, or if they're left out when there should be one. And it's not just a matter of footwork. It's all to do with how you're moving the Follower. You have to be conscious of her momentum, and where her weight is. And this is why putting in extra steps doesn't always work.

    Many moves feel better if you "unwind" the Follower between them, because of the direction that you're turning her during them. Basically, if you turn your Follower clockwise, she's going to expect to turn anticlockwise soon after. It's how the dance works. (Look at Muggles partner dancing to see how natural this is).

    The simplest way in MJ to do this is with a Return. Of course, there are many other ways of "unwinding" her, but let's look at a small routine of some standard beginner moves, as a simple example. Let's choose Yo-Yo, Catapult and First Move.

    • At the end of the Yo-Yo, the Follower has just turned clockwise. Instead of a Return (anticlockwise turn on the spot), you'd go straight into a Catapult. This starts with with the Follower turning anticlockwise as she travels under the Leader's arm, thus she is "unwound".
      You wouldn't expect to put a Return after the Yo-Yo and before the Catapult, because the anticlockwise turn isn't necessary. If it's there, it feels odd, because of the two anticlockwise turns in a row.
    • Then as he freespins her back to her original position in front of him - that's a clockwise spin, meaning that then another anticlockwise spin will be expected - there should be a Return following the Catapult, before going into the First Move.
      You'd expect a Return before the First Move - otherwise you have two clockwise turns in a row.


    In Intermediate classes and in Freestyle, you can normally tell if you need to "unwind" your Follower. It depends on what style you're dancing. If there's lots of close moves, and less spins & turns - you'll naturally need fewer Returns. And, of course, you get to know which moves have clockwise, and which moves have anticlockwise turns - so you can avoid Returns, should you particularly dislike them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    It's unwise to assume that all followers step back on their right.
    Ah well... that depends on whether Billy teaches footwork...

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Just to clarify - I meant it's inelegant if Returns are put in where they shouldn't be, or if they're left out when there should be one. And it's not just a matter of footwork. It's all to do with how you're moving the Follower. You have to be conscious of her momentum, and where her weight is. And this is why putting in extra steps doesn't always work.

    Many moves feel better if you "unwind" the Follower between them, because of the direction that you're turning her during them. Basically, if you turn your Follower clockwise, she's going to expect to turn anticlockwise soon after. It's how the dance works. (Look at Muggles partner dancing to see how natural this is).

    The simplest way in MJ to do this is with a Return. Of course, there are many other ways of "unwinding" her, but let's look at a small routine of some standard beginner moves, as a simple example. Let's choose Yo-Yo, Catapult and First Move.

    • At the end of the Yo-Yo, the Follower has just turned clockwise. Instead of a Return (anticlockwise turn on the spot), you'd go straight into a Catapult. This starts with with the Follower turning anticlockwise as she travels under the Leader's arm, thus she is "unwound".
      You wouldn't expect to put a Return after the Yo-Yo and before the Catapult, because the anticlockwise turn isn't necessary. If it's there, it feels odd, because of the two anticlockwise turns in a row.
    • Then as he freespins her back to her original position in front of him - that's a clockwise spin, meaning that then another anticlockwise spin will be expected - there should be a Return following the Catapult, before going into the First Move.
      You'd expect a Return before the First Move - otherwise you have two clockwise turns in a row.



    Ah well... that depends on whether Billy teaches footwork...
    Congratulations I see a light has gone on. Fantastic.

    I do teach footwork, it is pretty impossible not to.
    It's great to see that you understand the basic principles of the dance.

    That’s great! now you use it in your dancing. Don't accept the “cop out” of “no footwork required rubbish.
    Last edited by Billy Cullen; 20th-January-2008 at 09:20 PM.

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    Thumbs up Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Can you expand on a "change of place"?

    It's unwise to assume that all followers step back on their right.
    Can I explain: On the "turn" the lady is always back on her (Right) as her directional turn is to her right.

    On the "return" the lady is always back on her (Left) as her directional turn is to her left.

    on that extreamly basic principle of turn & returns you can then add your following move.

    i will answer your point about being back on the Right: It is unwise to assume the follower steps back on her right, but if you "return" her she will be back on her (Left).

    Jamie, this is all very basic stuff!!.
    If you have never been taught the bacics, then it's not your fault.
    A light to go on Jamie.... Think it through, it will soon make sense.

  4. #44
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    Congratulations I see a light has gone on. Fantastic.
    Sorry, mate. That light's been there so long, I have aircraft circling my head.

    I do teach footwork, it is pretty impossible not to.
    And looking at your reply to Jamie, it seems to be what I used to call "Bristol Footwork" on here. From my research, it appears to come from Michel Gay, as he took LeRoc to Bristol, and the similar Australian Ceroc footwork is also taken from him.

    I have a soft spot for that footwork, but it has its limitations. A key one is that it makes it harder for the Lady to dance with a Ceroc taught leader if they decide to break the conventions that I detailed in the last post. But, it could be argued that this is the way Modern Jive is evolving, and one shouldn't stand in the path of progress. I like that footwork, though, as it's logical, it reinforces the feel of the dance by highlighting the MJ counts, not the beats of the music, and it's attractive to look at.

    Andy McGregor teaches a different footwork pattern, which Nigel Anderson adopted from the LeRoc danced in the Brighton area. It's more versatile and easier to learn, but it's not as pretty as Michel's, and it's not as infallible as Andy thinks it is. For instance, I've had to put tripple steps in at times when dancing it.

    Don't accept the “cop out” of “no footwork required rubbish.
    No no footwork for me!

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    Jamie, this is all very basic stuff!!.
    If you have never been taught the bacics, then it's not your fault.
    A light to go on Jamie.... Think it through, it will soon make sense.
    I'm too much of a freespirit to be bound by such mortal rules, don't you get it Billy, your rules just don't apply to me

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    If you "return" her she will be back on her (Left).
    Except when she's back on her (Right).

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Except when she's back on her (Right).
    A "turn" is always to the Right
    A "Return" is always to the Left

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    your rules just don't apply to me
    The principle rules of turning were not invented by me, this rule applies to all.

    To say that the rules of dance don't apply to you, is incorrect. as they do.
    Last edited by Billy Cullen; 21st-January-2008 at 12:05 AM.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    A "turn" is always to the Right
    A "Return" is always to the Left
    Some followers will do a return to the (Left) and then step back on their (Right).

    In other news, (Brackets) are great.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    The principle rules of turning were not invented by me, this rule applies to all.

    To say that the rules of dance don't apply to you, is incorrect. as they do.
    I reinvented the rules on turning mate

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I reinvented the rules on turning mate
    Sure you did!!

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Some followers will do a return to the (Left) and then step back on their (Right).

    In other news, (Brackets) are great.
    They are just missing out the break.

    You will always step back on the foot you are turning on. this applies to left or right.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    Sure you did!!
    Yeah, pm me for a private.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    They are just missing out the break.

    You will always step back on the foot you are turning on. this applies to left or right.
    How can you step back on the foot you're using to turn on? I'm confused, if you can't even convey your meanings over a forum, I'd hate to hear you teaching a MJ class. *cringes*

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    How can you step back on the foot you're using to turn on?
    I guess he expects that there will be a transfer of weight to the foot not being used for turning either at the end of the turn or in order to slow down/stop the turn and the obvious inclination then will be to step back on the non-weighted foot. It's a reasonable expectation and I suspect you'd probably find more people at the average MJ night meeting this expectation than not doing so. However there will always be exceptions (people who paddle round to turn, etc) and debates on here about the 'correct' footwork never seem to persuade anyone of anything other than the fact they they are right.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by robd View Post
    I guess he expects that there will be a transfer of weight to the foot not being used for turning either at the end of the turn or in order to slow down/stop the turn and the obvious inclination then will be to step back on the non-weighted foot. {snip}
    Thanks Rob.

    Having just tested a return *albeit not led, a freespin*:

    Stepping back on the left - Stepping in on my right foot *turning ACW one full turn* - Step back on my left foot.

    Stepping back on my right foot - stepping in on my left foot *turning ACW one full turn* - Step back on my right foot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    They are just missing out the break.

    You will always step back on the foot you are turning on. this applies to left or right.
    Sounds like you really need a private with me Billy. I'm sure a light will come on soon enough xxx

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Thanks Rob.

    Having just tested a return *albeit not led, a freespin*:

    Stepping back on the left - Stepping in on my right foot *turning ACW one full turn* - Step back on my left foot.

    Stepping back on my right foot - stepping in on my left foot *turning ACW one full turn* - Step back on my right foot.
    Try it this way

    One of the basic principles of the "turn" and "return"
    Left foot is forward turn left, break (Right) step back left,
    to the Right, right foot forward, turn right, break (Left) step back (Right).

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    Try it this way

    One of the basic principles of the "turn" and "return"
    Left foot is forward turn left, break (Right) step back left,
    to the Right, right foot forward, turn right, break (Left) step back (Right).
    Silly me, theres me thinking you were talking about a controlled turn/return.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Silly me, theres me thinking you were talking about a controlled turn/return.
    No problem Jamie we all make mistakes.

    Glad you got it.
    Last edited by Billy Cullen; 21st-January-2008 at 01:36 AM.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    No problem Jamie we all make mistakes.

    Glad you got it.
    I "got" what you meant if that's what you're going on about? You're difficult to understand. However, I'll continue to turn and return in a controlled manner, I'll leave you to your sloppy footwork.

    on a controlled turn and return it sits at the back of a first move.
    What sits at the back of a first move?

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I "got" what you meant if that's what you're going on about? You're difficult to understand. However, I'll continue to turn and return in a controlled manner, I'll leave you to your sloppy footwork.



    What sits at the back of a first move?
    A Turn and Return.

    and use the same Ladies format footwork
    to the Right, right foot forward, turn right, break (Left) step back (Right).
    and to the Left, foot is forward turn left, break (Right) step back left,

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