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Thread: Removing returns from beginner routines.

  1. #21
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    I tend to teach every move with a return in the beginners class because I personally feel beginners need that break inbetween moves, they aren't at a level where returns can influence a dance.
    I can see your argument for that, why teach it wrong and then correct it at a later stage, would it not be better to teach it correctly the first time.

    Adding a return after every move??, so after a Change Place you would return then link to a catapult or windmill.

    Why!

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hmmm...

    Well, I certainly don't use "normal" returns - i.e. an anti-clockwise turn followed by a step back. I use travelling returns - a lot - and I use anti-clockwise turns also - usually as ways to get into something like a sway or a comb. I wouldn't use a return into a Cerocspin though - seems inelegant to me.

    Does that count? What were we talking about again?
    Yes, it was about returns in beginner routines and I can see the sense in having them there.

    I don't really think a travelling return counts - its totally different turning 180 on the spot as a standard return compared to turning 90 as you travel. I like travelling returns. So we are talking about the 'normal' returns here.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    I can see your argument for that, why teach it wrong and then correct it at a later stage, would it not be better to teach it correctly the first time.

    Adding a return after every move??, so after a Change Place you would return then link to a catapult or windmill.

    Why!
    There's nothing wrong or right about teaching returns on moves where the next in the routine is an anticlockwise turn for the lady. It's personal preference.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    There's nothing wrong or right about teaching returns on moves where the next in the routine is an anticlockwise turn for the lady. It's personal preference.
    My example was a Change of Place in to a Catapult are you telling me that you would make a return after the Change of Place.

    If you return after the Change of Place it wrong foots the lady. as she is already back on her (Right).
    Last edited by Billy Cullen; 18th-January-2008 at 06:01 PM.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Basket - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Windmill - ladies Back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Catapult - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Loophole (Octopus) - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Ladies Spin - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Sway - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.

    It would be wrong to add a return before these moves.

  6. #26
    Registered User SuzyQ's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    I agree with Billy, though not all those moves are official Ceroc beginners moves. I listed all the beginners moves that start with an anticlockwise turn (whether 360, 180 or 90 degrees) where clearly you shouldn't put in a return. It not only wrong foots the follow but also does not flow at all!!
    When I 'miss' a return out in my classes, I do explain that one is not needed before each of those moves because they start with an anticlockwise movement for the follow.
    I believe the CTA training doesn't specify what you must and must not do in terms of returns (unless I missed it!!). I am also not aware of a recent change in policy!

    SuzyQ

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuzyQ View Post
    When I 'miss' a return out in my classes, I do explain that one is not needed before each of those moves because they start with an anticlockwise movement for the follow.
    SuzyQ
    You don't need to be teacher to understand the basics of a return principle, I'm pleases that you get the simple connection between the Turn Return and the ladies footwork.

    To continually wrong foot a lady will make her dancing look sloppy as she have no option but hop skip and jump to be next move.

    I think it's more important for the man to understand the ladies footwork to avoid sending her back on the wrong foot hence making her dancing much smoother as its his job to do just that.

    SuzyQ you must be a very good teacher. 10 out of 10.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuzyQ View Post
    I believe the CTA training doesn't specify what you must and must not do in terms of returns (unless I missed it!!). I am also not aware of a recent change in policy!

    SuzyQ
    You don't need a change in policy to understand the basics. Do you?
    It's really pretty simple stuff.

  9. #29
    Registered User SuzyQ's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    I've got to say though that when you are given routines for the beginners classes, no one specifies whether you should teach a turn or return there - it really seems a matter of personal choice for the teacher ... which means you end up with huge variation.
    I'm sure most teachers understand these concepts really well, but us girls have the added benefit of knowing what a badly designed routine can feel like from both points of view .
    SuzyQ

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuzyQ View Post
    I've got to say though that when you are given routines for the beginners classes, no one specifies whether you should teach a turn or return there - it really seems a matter of personal choice for the teacher ... which means you end up with huge variation.
    SuzyQ
    I was on the understanding that all teachers are singing from the same hymn book, has the hymn book got the beginners pages missing! leading to the "huge variations"

    I get the feeling that some of the dancers are on the understanding that a Turn & Return is only added to buy you Time, one of the posts was to "take out the returns completely", that's a very poor understanding of the dance.
    Last edited by Billy Cullen; 19th-January-2008 at 01:15 PM. Reason: typo

  11. #31
    Registered User martingold's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    Basket - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Windmill - ladies Back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Catapult - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Loophole (Octopus) - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Ladies Spin - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.
    Sway - ladies back on (Right) Directional turn is to the Left.

    It would be wrong to add a return before these moves.
    sadly in my opinion the lady spin windmill and sway are no longer on the list of begginers moves
    But i agree about it being wrong to add a return on the end of those moves

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    sadly in my opinion the lady spin windmill and sway are no longer on the list of begginers moves
    But i agree about it being wrong to add a return on the end of those moves
    I've never done a windmill – and only rarely done a half-windmill. I don't feel that I've missed out on much.

    I agree though that the sway should be a beginner's move.

    I'm not sure what a lady-spin is.

    Anyway, he said you shouldn't use a return before those moves. A return after them is a different matter.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I've never done a windmill – and only rarely done a half-windmill. I don't feel that I've missed out on much.

    I agree though that the sway should be a beginner's move.

    I'm not sure what a lady-spin is.

    Anyway, he said you shouldn't use a return before those moves. A return after them is a different matter.
    Lady spin - think of a ball & socket without the left hand or a Ceroc spin without switching to the left hand.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by martingold View Post
    But i agree about it being wrong to add a return on the end of those moves
    It's before the move.

    I'm not to sure that every one knows that the Turn & Return is the setup for the proceeding move.
    I think that the confusion occurs because the turns & returns are usually added after the move and not before.
    Last edited by Billy Cullen; 19th-January-2008 at 05:27 PM.

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    I'm pleased that you get the simple connection between the Turn Return and the ladies footwork.
    Does this apply if the follower is doing walking footwork?

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Oh yikes - don't want to get in trouble. 'Huge variation' may have been over selling it. SuzyQ does the new 'backtrack shuffle' move!!

    As I said later on in the post - I would imagine that teachers should have a good understanding of turns and returns and their appropriate use, but it is left to Ceroc teachers to decide whether to put in a return or not. Discretionary is the word ... and of course that results in variation (though not huge ).

    I know that it can be a bit of a struggle for a new beginners class to do something like a manspin into a catapult with no return inbetween. I would argue it shouldn't be there, but I'm sure others can come up with very valid reasons for putting it in.

    SuzyQ

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Does this apply if the follower is doing walking footwork?
    May I?

    It doesn't feel quite so weird as being wrong-footed*, but it still feels odd. (See SuzyQ's & Billy's posts in this thread on directional turns for the reason why this is so). When the required return is missing, or if an unnecessary return is added, it can make the dance feel stilted, and change the flow. And this applies to travelling returns, or any other variation thereof.

    The walking footwork helps you cope with it, and it's perfectly do-able (as Jamie says), but to the vast majority of experienced followers - it feels odd. If it happens in class, you'll quite often hear them comment on it.

    I personally think that the Return is a significant identifying characteristic of Modern Jive, but I'm old fashioned like that. It's like a part of the grammar. However, dance, like language, is constantly evolving. And so I expect that leaving out Returns is just like txt spk to the youngsters. You can communicate like that, but somehow it just doesn't seem as elegant.


    *I don't know what footwork Billy teaches. However, from your comment, I'm assuming you're thinking of Lady's left foot back for "normal moves" (like the First Move (Hello DJ, btw... ), Yo-Yo, etc. ), Right foot back for Returns, Catapults, etc?

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    It seems that folks are saying that besides recovery and thinking time, the purpose of returns are to change the foot the follower is on, in order to do the next move, but they should be left out when the next move does not require a change of footing, right?

    Has anyone considered changing their followers footing by making them take a further step back, or extra step forward into the move? That way you should be able to get a return-less dance without any wrong-footing going on. No?

    I'm sorry, Lou, that you feel return-less dancing to be in-elegant. I feel the same way about dancing with lots of returns – as you said, it can make the dance feel (and look) stilted.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    It seems that folks are saying that besides recovery and thinking time, the purpose of returns are to change the foot the follower is on, in order to do the next move, but they should be left out when the next move does not require a change of footing, right?
    Yes for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Has anyone considered changing their followers footing by making them take a further step back, or extra step forward into the move? That way you should be able to get a return-less dance without any wrong-footing going on. No?
    Yes, some teachers do this and explain it, but when they do not...


    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I'm sorry, Lou, that you feel return-less dancing to be in-elegant. I feel the same way about dancing with lots of returns – as you said, it can make the dance feel (and look) stilted.
    Lots of returns is a bad thing IMHO, but maybe one, to get the footwork right and to not make the beginner routine "too busy" is comforting.

    In an intermediate routine, returns can be cut out, as long as the routine has been well thought out, from both dancers perspectives. [and please no hand changes above the head, coz you cannot work out a smooth routine that gets you on the correct hand!!!] How naff is that!!

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    Re: Removing returns from beginner routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Cullen View Post
    My example was a Change of Place in to a Catapult are you telling me that you would make a return after the Change of Place.

    If you return after the Change of Place it wrong foots the lady. as she is already back on her (Right).
    Can you expand on a "change of place"?

    It's unwise to assume that all followers step back on their right.

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