Removing returns from beginner routines.

[Gadget]

As well as the 3 move thing on the beginner's routine I have noticed that teachers seem to be removing as many returns as they can between the moves:

In the beginner class, is removing the returns a good or a bad thing?

It removes the definition between "moves" and heads towards a more "movement" orientated dance - which is good IMHO, but I think in the beginner's class the people will learn some 3 move "micro-routines" and go from there into "movements". It glosses over the "moves" step where you can build yourself into your own "micro-routines" or break them down and build your own "moves". I think that it will make the routine harder to learn (but there are only 3 moves now so perhaps it balances out) and make it harder to initially dance freestyle because there is no 'common' divide between moves.

[Martin]

I say keep the returns in, apart from getting the follow back on the correct foot, it provides thinking time for the lead.

[ducasi]

I say keep the returns in, apart from getting the follow back on the correct foot, it provides thinking time for the lead.

It's important both for leaders and followers to get practice in leading and being lead turns.

In the intermediate class though, that's a different matter. The intermediate class I attended on Tuesday was entirely return-less.

[martingold]

It's important both for leaders and followers to get practice in leading and being lead turns.

In the intermediate class though, that's a different matter. The intermediate class I attended on Tuesday was entirely return-less.

also you need the returns to help stop the ladies going dizzy especially in the beginners class

[JiveLad]

Interesting thread - at Berko last Sunday in the beginners, the teacher had a return in then decided we should not do the return - and then towards the end of the class re-introduced it.

(At least that's how I remembered the sequence).

For me, I preferred it with the return in!

There are of course, sometimes situations in class where it feels so natural to do a return at the end of a move and the teacher has to shout "NO RETURN!" - because of the next move........

[Steven666]

It depends. If the next move is, say, a catapult or ceroc spin then the return is pointless.

Otherwise put it in!

[Martin]

There is a bit more to this...

And it is about the follower...

When putting a lesson together it is very important, even in an intermediate class, to be aware of the follow's weight ballance (what foot she is on, or where her weight is)

Many male teachers forget this. Coz for the lead it is less important.

Question for the followers.... Have you been to a lesson where returns have been cut out, but you have felt uncomfortable going into the next move?

[Jamie]

The only one I dispise is a return straight into a Cerocspin. It's horrible!

I tend to teach every move with a return in the beginners class because I personally feel beginners need that break inbetween moves, they aren't at a level where returns can influence a dance.

Intermediate routines sometimes have no returns, sometimes they do, it depends entirely on what routine I teach.

I get my demo to lead me through my routine (or Caz if my demo can't lead (very rare I use a demo who can't lead!)) to make sure it flows.

[Twirly]

also you need the returns to help stop the ladies going dizzy especially in the beginners class

with bells on!

I've actually asked leads (where they've held onto my hand in class) to return me in intermediates when I've been getting dizzy (and I get dizzy quite easily in class). Sometimes I just do it by myself if they've let go.

Gotta get that inner ear rebalanced!

[SuzyQ]

I think that if the next move starts with any anticlockwise turning for the lady then you really should remove the return so this applies to

• Catapult
• Ceroc Spin (it is an anticlockwise prep before the spin clockwise)
• Shoulder Drop
• Combs

Think that is it for beginners moves. Otopus strictly starts with an anticlockwise turn for the lady but a return helps with acquiring both hands .

Any other thoughts on this??

SuzyQ

[gebandemuishond]

I think that if the next move starts with any anticlockwise turning for the lady then you really should remove the return so this applies to

• Catapult
• Ceroc Spin (it is an anticlockwise prep before the spin clockwise)
• Shoulder Drop
• Combs

Think that is it for beginners moves. Otopus strictly starts with an anticlockwise turn for the lady but a return helps with acquiring both hands .

Any other thoughts on this??

SuzyQ

I always think of the shoulder drop and comb as starting with a return, so I don't think that's much of a problem. Got to watch out for the catapult and ceroc spin though, it's not so obvious. I guess this is an advantage of males dancing a bit of follower from time to time, we need to experience the dizziness, as I think for a lot of people the moves are seen as rather modular, they can be slung together in any order.

Dan

[StokeBloke]

I don't think it's as important as sticking to what you start with. I remember getting very confused when returns were 'magically' dropped out of the routine we were learning when I started learning to Ceroc.

If you teach it at the start, stick with it. ESPECIALLY in the beginner class!

[martingold]

I don't think it's as important as sticking to what you start with. I remember getting very confused when returns were 'magically' dropped out of the routine we were learning when I started learning to Ceroc.

If you teach it at the start, stick with it. ESPECIALLY in the beginner class!

I always think of the shoulder drop and comb as starting with a return, so I don't think that's much of a problem. Got to watch out for the catapult and ceroc spin though, it's not so obvious.

Dan

[drathzel]

The only one I dispise is a return straight into a Cerocspin. It's horrible!

or if the next move starts with a return ie the shoulder drop or the comb i wont be teaching the return at the end of the previous move but as the start of the next move.

I like returns so i say keep them in

[Lynn]

While I hate pointless returns I can understand their usefulness in beginner routines as they have a purpose -
- thinking time for the leads
- recovery time for the follows - both in terms of getting balanced for the next move and not getting too dizzy.

I do think that a fair few could be scrapped from intermediate moves - there never seems to be much explanation on the fact they are a beginners tool and can seem to spoil a move rather than add value to it. You can have a lovely smooth, flowing move and then 'oh yes, have to stick a return on the end here'... no, really, you don't.

So a question for the experienced leads who don't use them every move - why/when did you figure out they weren't needed? Was it explained to you, just felt right when you had got to a certain level of experience, or from observation of others.

[martingold]

So a question for the experienced leads who don't use them every move - why/when did you figure out they weren't needed? Was it explained to you, just felt right when you had got to a certain level of experience, or from observation of others.

When i am dancing i just do what feels right at the time it might be the music or it might just be the next move that comes into my head or just the feel of the follower in my hand so i cant say when i figured out a return wasnt needed i just try to keep all of my movements and my leads as smooth as possible i rarely have a concious decision about a move i am going to do unless my follower asks for one to be put in then of course i will oblige

[ducasi]

So a question for the experienced leads who don't use them every move - why/when did you figure out they weren't needed? Was it explained to you, just felt right when you had got to a certain level of experience, or from observation of others.

I never noticed them going, but thinking about it, I rarely use returns. They just aren't part of my style.

[Billy Cullen]

I say keep the returns in, apart from getting the follow back on the correct foot, it provides thinking time for the lead.

The "turn", and "return" is a major components of the dance, if the teacher has no grasp of the basics in turns and returns when added to the moves or not adding to moves this will result in wrong footing the girl.

One of the basic principles of the "turn" and "return"
Left foot is forward turn left, break (Right) step back left,
to the Right, right foot forward, turn right, break (Left) step back (Right).

From a Change of place to a Catapult you would not add a return. As a return would wrong foot the girl?

The reason for this is the Catapult is back on the (Right), her directional turn is to the (Left) stepping on the left to turn left.
Not stepping (Right) to turn Left.

If she started back (Left) she would be on the wrong foot, then she would have to make a compensating step to get back to the Left to turn Left.

This is basic beginners stuff that all beginners should know.

[Lynn]

I never noticed them going, but thinking about it, I rarely use returns. They just aren't part of my style.

That's the thing, I don't know many experienced leaders who use them that much. I wondered if it was a conscious decision to drop them or if they just stop using them over time.

[David Bailey]

That's the thing, I don't know many experienced leaders who use them that much. I wondered if it was a conscious decision to drop them or if they just stop using them over time.

Hmmm...

Well, I certainly don't use "normal" returns - i.e. an anti-clockwise turn followed by a step back. I use travelling returns - a lot - and I use anti-clockwise turns also - usually as ways to get into something like a sway or a comb. I wouldn't use a return into a Cerocspin though - seems inelegant to me.

Does that count? What were we talking about again?