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Thread: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordieed View Post
    Yeah I know. Just to help though the '&' isn't always in the middle as you described.
    *blinks* - it's at the midpoint for cha cha, and it isn't for swing. I think those were the only examples I gave....
    Last edited by straycat; 15th-January-2008 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordieed View Post
    Yeah I know. Just to help though the '&' isn't always in the middle as you described.
    may be it would be helpful to say where it is, then

    In the rolling count used by Skippy Blair (whose teaching is considered by many (not all)as the Bible of wcs), it is at 1/3 of the beat, i.e. 'and a one and a two etc'. She teaches to step on the 'a' count for triple steps, and that would be a swung triple.

    Just to add something while I'm there, WCS is also supposed to be danced (mainly) swung to straight music. Therefore some would argue it remains a swing dance even if the music doesn't swing.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    In the rolling count used by Skippy Blair (whose teaching is considered by many (not all)as the Bible of wcs), it is at 1/3 of the beat, i.e. 'and a one and a two etc'. She teaches to step on the 'a' count for triple steps, and that would be a swung triple.
    Yeah - I marked it as a 1/4 ratio - but the truth is there's a lot of leeway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    Just to add something while I'm there, WCS is also supposed to be danced (mainly) swung to straight music. Therefore some would argue it remains a swing dance even if the music doesn't swing.
    Now that one really puzzles me - so you swing the triples even when it really doesn't match the music? If I do that, it usually feels plain wrong...

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Yeah - I marked it as a 1/4 ratio - but the truth is there's a lot of leeway.
    well when it comes to dancing to music we usually dance to (say, in WCS, 85 to 140 bpm), I doubt a lot of people would be able to spot if you tripled on the 3rd fourth of the beat or the 2nd third.
    But to keep repeating what Skippy says (hoping I don't mess up in the process), if you count 'e and a 1 e and a 2' you're still counting straight and not using her famous 'rolling count'.

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Now that one really puzzles me - so you swing the triples even when it really doesn't match the music? If I do that, it usually feels plain wrong...
    I see what you mean, it confused me too for a while. I'm not saying they dance it swung all the time, they might decide to do some 'straight' ones, but as I understand it it's more to make a point about being musical and highlight some particularly strong beats.

    I think, again if understood correctly, that Skippy advocates that using rolling counts will make your body looks like it's dancing within the music instead of on top of it. She'd explain that it's got to do with your center being in constant movement.

    I had Jordan show me in a private too, what it would be like dancing using straight counts and rolling counts to a piece of straight music. And when using rolling counts it does look like he is 'melting' his dancing with the music. Whereas using straight counts it looked more stacato. Can't explain it much better, it's really a visual experience .

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I've also been thinking about this and it suddenly occurred to me, I think I could tell if someone was doing Lindy, Cha Cha, Ballroom Tango, Argentine Tango, Ballroom Jive or Modern Jive, even if there was 'no' music, so for me, its the style and not the music, that defines the dance!
    Absolutely right

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    I've also been thinking about this and it suddenly occurred to me, I think I could tell if someone was doing Lindy, Cha Cha, Ballroom Tango, Argentine Tango, Ballroom Jive or Modern Jive, even if there was 'no' music, so for me, its the style and not the music, that defines the dance!

    BUT the music has defined those dances (contrast Rhumba & Cha Cha Cha), we could go round and round forever on that one

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Some footwork patterns can be swung. For example, on a kick-ball-change, the "ball" element can be delayed so that it is later than halfway between the "kick" and the "change". This demonstrates a swung feel. The same applies to a triple step. Other footwork patterns cannot be swung. For example, the R-L-R-L- walking pattern common to Modern Jive followers doesn't swing.

    There are other ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    That's actually a perfect description of the feeling - one of the things I love about swing music is what I call either its sloppy precision, or its precise sloppiness.

    The swing aspect though comes about through the timing of the footwork. Best example is with triple steps - if one is stepping 1 2 3&4 - the '&' is not precisely halfway between the 3 and the 4 (as it would be in, say, cha cha or in ballroom jive) - it's around 3/4 of the way through the interval. That's basically what a swung triple is - it gives a radically different feel to the dance. I like to dance it in a very 'lazy' fashion - so I don't really put my full weight on the triple - I'm just skimming my foot along the floor with only a partial weight transfer on the triple. Hope this makes some kind of sense.
    Thanks guys, I think I get it. I know I can swing quavers like any horn tootin jazz cat, when playing instruments, so theoretically it should be easy to start dancing like Mr Bojangles.

    Dan

    P.S. I think I must have misunderstood the "rolling count" of Skippy Blair, Jordan Frisbee et al. I always thought it refered to the fact that you start moving before the one of the pattern, so that your feet are in time with the music but the rest of your body is slightly early. Is there a name for this, if there are any WCS-ers extraordinaires out there?

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christine Keeble View Post
    .......If you were doing it in the late 50's I'd love to know if you went to the original 2ii's Club and, if so, was it as fab as they say it was? What were you wearing? who used to hang out there? and what was the atmosphere like? Was it anything like the way they portray it in Absolute Beginners? Please tell all....
    They did the Rock 'n' Roll style jive at the 2ii's - not my scene. My Uncle had a club and offices right opposite the 2ii's but I didn't like going there, anyway I think it became really popular in the early 60's rather than late 50's

    I went to all the French night clubs, there were a couple down Wardour Street, can't remember the names at the moment - one club Alan Price and Georgie Fame used to play at. BTW they didn't French Jive at "The 100 Club" it was 'Jazz Jive' a skippy sort of jive.

    My fave haunt was the "la poubelle" which was in Leicester Place (I think) near where Notre Dame is now

    The atmosphere was amazing, the lighting was very low and the rooms were quite small - it was very sleezy and smokey and felt very sexy - the dancing was very sexy too, as there were lots of close holds, but is was jiving and contained quite a few of the accepted MJ moves, like the first move, basket and the YoYo etc. (I was actually under age, but there again most of the girls were - those French boys were sooooooooo yummy ) Us girlies wore tight trousers and sexy tops (well we thought they were sexy)

    The other RnR style jive as you have said above, was danced to fast music, was bouncy and there was very little full contact, we did that in the youth clubs with full lighting, wearing our petticoats etc. (but never short socks)


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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    It's the bold I'm not sure of. I know what a swung beat is musically, not how to use it in dancing. When I hear those brushes caressing the snare, the high hats doing their tsss t t tsss t t tsss, the bass doing its thing, I want to 'dance swung', but I don't know how.

    Maybe by bending/slowing the movements with the rhythm, then 'lazily snapping' into place. Not sure how the footwork would change though.

    Ideas & experience appreciated,
    Dan
    I'm sure there are many expressive ways you can take advantage of swung eighths. To be honest, I don't think the footwork in MJ does change. It's more of a 'hold' on the quaver (think it's a quaver ), a timing thing, rather than introducing a change in footwork. Although I guess there is nothing that actually precludes that if the music demands it.
    It gives you time to do something, bending/slowing as you say, some decoration or a Lindy'ish hip swivel (my fav, particularly if the lady decorates it further by dipping or slowing the swivel or something).

    Watching the US WCS pros opens up a hold world of things to try

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Swedish Bugg is normally regarded as a swing dance, though it fails against criteria 1 & 3 that you give.
    Hmm, yes it does, doesn't it? I probably wouldn't regard Bugg as a swing dance (judging purely by YouTube), but would rather say that it is a descendant of swing dances. However, I'm hardly an authority on the matter.

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    Re: Is MJ a Swing dance (Does the music define the dance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by gebandemuishond View Post
    P.S. I think I must have misunderstood the "rolling count" of Skippy Blair, Jordan Frisbee et al. I always thought it refered to the fact that you start moving before the one of the pattern, so that your feet are in time with the music but the rest of your body is slightly early.
    I wouldn't say that's misunderstood at all, using the rolling you have 'and a' before '1' which does allow you to initiate movement from your center before your feet move.
    The difference with using full or straight counts is mainly an 'illusion', like if you were creating time between the beats which allow more subtlety in movement.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    But to keep repeating what Skippy says (hoping I don't mess up in the process), if you count 'e and a 1 e and a 2' you're still counting straight and not using her famous 'rolling count'.
    [etc...]
    I've just had to look up the whole rolling count thing, as I hadn't a clue what it meant. I think I'm starting to get a handle on it (courtesy of Skippy's explanations) - but it seems like a completely separate thing to a musical swing count - even when she's 'chanting' the rhythm, it sounds (to me) quite different. Although it does seem like an intriguing technique - and it certainly goes a long way towards explaining the footwork I see in all the top-flight WCS clips. It just doesn't feel like swing (in the sense that I understand it)

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    However, I'm hardly an authority on the matter.
    When has that ever stopped you?

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    Swedish Bugg is normally regarded as a swing dance, though it fails against criteria 1 & 3 that you give.
    And, by following one of the links in the item ducasi linked to I found that Modern Jive is a swing dance. Look here.

    Sometimes it's all too easy

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    And, by following one of the links in the item ducasi linked to I found that Modern Jive is a swing dance. Look here.

    Sometimes it's all too easy
    Wiki - the ultimate authority . You have no idea just how tempted I am by the idea of - ahem - editing that page, and juggling those categories around a teensy bit....

    I'm going to be good though, and leave it alone...

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Wiki - the ultimate authority . You have no idea just how tempted I am by the idea of - ahem - editing that page, and juggling those categories around a teensy bit....

    I'm going to be good though, and leave it alone...
    All you need is a bit of 3rd party evidence. The whole thing is subjective, therefore any 3rd party evidence will do.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    All you need is a bit of 3rd party evidence. The whole thing is subjective, therefore any 3rd party evidence will do.
    Well - if that's the basis for most of your assertions, I'm going to have to stop believing so much of what you say...

    (anyway - I thought it didn't matter to you...)
    Last edited by straycat; 16th-January-2008 at 07:34 PM.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M View Post
    My fave haunt was the "la poubelle" which was in Leicester Place (I think) near where Notre Dame is now

    The atmosphere was amazing, the lighting was very low and the rooms were quite small - it was very sleezy and smokey and felt very sexy - the dancing was very sexy too, as there were lots of close holds, but is was jiving and contained quite a few of the accepted MJ moves, like the first move, basket and the YoYo etc. (I was actually under age, but there again most of the girls were - those French boys were sooooooooo yummy ) Us girlies wore tight trousers and sexy tops (well we thought they were sexy)
    So interesting Minnie M,

    If only I knew about those clubs a few years later, and if only they were in Worthing!

    As to what to wear. I simply do not get it when women wear trousers and men curl their lashes, put on mascarra and all that stuff. (rant over)

    Back on topic.... I would never say what I dance is swing!

    I modern partner dance.

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Well - if that's the basis for most of your assertions, I'm going to have to stop believing so much of what you say...
    You believed something I said?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    (anyway - I thought it didn't matter to you...)
    It doesn't. What fascinates me is how much it matters to some other people. I just like to keep feeding the fire

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    Re: Famous with out consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    You believed something I said?
    Yep! Why? Any reason I should not have? (your over-reliance on the Gods of Wikipedia notwithstanding)

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    It doesn't. What fascinates me is how much it matters to some other people. I just like to keep feeding the fire
    OK. So why does it matter to me - aside from the fact that I'm a picky so-n-so....

    Because the most important characteristic of a swing dance (by my definition) is the music - the whole structure, rhythm and feel of the swing dances, the footwork, the improvisational structures... it all stems from that. So to take the music out of the definition 'swing dance' removes all meaning from the definition. To apply the term to a dance which doesn't make integral use of swing music again renders the term meaningless... so why do it? I don't see what MJ has to gain by labelling it as such.

    Now WCS is another matter - take away the swing, and it becomes WC - so I can understand why WC(S)ers are so keen to keep that definition...

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