Ethics v Business

[Gus]

Been a few debates recently when the reality of Ethics v Business have come out. I suppose I have fond memories of times gone by where there was a certain code of honour between organisers. There is now a new breed of promoters on the block who seem to be a lot more canny, and a more pragmatic approach seems to be the norm. The question in my mind is, “Does anything go?”

[Andy McGregor]

I think you do what's right for your business. And you consider the whole market when considering what's right. If what you're doing could improve your business in the short-term but damage the market then it's something that you probably shouldn't do.

for example, organisers bickering in a public way is going to put people off and damage the MJ market. Organisers competing on price is going to improve the market as it means more people will go dancing more often.

[Gus]

I think you do what's right for your business. And you consider the whole market when considering what's right. If what you're doing could improve your business in the short-term but damage the market then it's something that you probably shouldn't do..

But what damages the market? I've seen a number of clubs start up recently with NO busking. Where are the new dancers coming from? In most cases, they are simply taking them off other clubs. This obviously doesn't help the market. Ceroc is an easy target to kick, but the one consistent thing is that they do bring in new dancers.

[StokeBloke]

But what damages the market? I've seen a number of clubs start up recently with NO busking. Where are the new dancers coming from? In most cases, they are simply taking them off other clubs. This obviously doesn't help the market. Ceroc is an easy target to kick, but the one consistent thing is that they do bring in new dancers.

Doesn't help the market? I thought that competition was usually a good thing for the punters - if not always so good for the businesses vying for the punter's money

[Gus]

Doesn't help the market? I thought that competition was usually a good thing for the punters - if not always so good for the businesses vying for the punter's money

OK ... look at this way. If Ceroc spend loads of money promoting MJ and bringing new dancers in, only for new clubs to set up and steal these dancers away ..... why should they continue. Instead they will spend their resources on getting all the dancers from these independent clubs ... and will succeed because they have greater resources to call upon. The net result would be a smaller market, less dancers, less independents and poorer standard because there will be no threat. If you want to see what happens when ethics go out the window look at Brightnam. A sad , sad story

[StokeBloke]

OK ... look at this way. If Ceroc spend loads of money promoting MJ and bringing new dancers in, only for new clubs to set up and steal these dancers away ..... why should they continue. Instead they will spend their resources on getting all the dancers from these independent clubs ... and will succeed because they have greater resources to call upon. The net result would be a smaller market, less dancers, less independents and poorer standard because there will be no threat. If you want to see what happens when ethics go out the window look at Brightnam. A sad , sad story

Maybe because Ceroc's staple income is the beginner market.... and they're not that interested in dancers once they get past a certain point in their dancing life.

Just to clarify, is this actually a serious discussion about business ethics, or a thinly veiled ploy for you to bitch about the business choices of those around you Craig? Not an accusation, just a serious question so we all know where we stand and why we find ourselves discussing this at this time

[MartinHarper]

I've seen a number of clubs start up recently with NO busking. Where are the new dancers coming from? In most cases, they are simply taking them off other clubs.

If a new organiser can start up and sustain itself purely from excess demand for Modern Jive classes and freestyles, that typically means that the existing organisers aren't putting on enough classes and freestyles to satisfy demand. This would normally because they think they can make more money, or more reliable money, when demand outstrips supply. Alternatively, it may be a cashflow issue, or a desire to stay at a manageable scale. Either way, dancers are plagued by sold-out events and overcrowded floors. This then drives away both new and existing dancers.

Arguably, an example of this has been shown by Ceroc's entrance into the weekender market.

[bigdjiver]

]... I taught Le Roc with Michel at the Centre Charles Peguy, Leicester Square on Saturdays and James and Janie Cronin taught Ceroc at the Centre Charles Peguy at Leicester Square – also on Saturdays. Their class followed ours and some pupils stayed on for their class - hence plenty of cross fertilisation of ideas. ..

54321

[Dreadful Scathe]

OK ... look at this way. If Ceroc spend loads of money promoting MJ and bringing new dancers in, only for new clubs to set up and steal these dancers away ..... why should they continue.

Luckily for them, Coca-Cola didn't think this way when Virgin Cola came out. I think they continued but I don't really drink Cola

[David Bailey]

Maybe because Ceroc's staple income is the beginner market.... and they're not that interested in dancers once they get past a certain point in their dancing life.

Well sure, but that applies to all MJ venues. Ceroc's no worse than others in that regard, and arguable can be better.

Just to clarify, is this actually a serious discussion about business ethics, or a thinly veiled ploy for you to bitch about the business choices of those around you?

Why can't it be both?

[Andy McGregor]

If you want to see what happens when ethics go out the window look at Brightnam. A sad , sad story

Things have changed down here. The warring stopped, and not before time. At the peak of the warring the number of dancers in the area had plummetted - I'd stopped dancing locally and so had many others. On a Tuesday in Ealing, 90 miles from Brighton, you'd regularly have a dozen Brighton dancers because there was nowhere we'd like to dance locally. You would bump into displaced Brighton dancers everywhere.

Nowadays things are much calmer, with one notable exception, local Brighton organisers put out leaflets for each other and even do joint events.

Now I think about it, that "exception" appeared at about the same time as hostilities commenced.

[Gus]

Maybe because Ceroc's staple income is the beginner market.... and they're not that interested in dancers once they get past a certain point in their dancing life. :

That may apply to some Ceroc clubs, but not all. Ceroc Scotland, clubs in London and some in the old Ceroc Central region could defintirly keep a dnacer entertained no matter what their level. I've seen few organsiation outside Ceroc who actualy met the needs of the more advnaced dancers, rather than just say they did (obvious exception being Jango, Jive Addiction, Hipsters WCS-ers etc).

Just to clarify, is this actually a serious discussion about business ethics, or a thinly veiled ploy for you to bitch about the business choices of those around you Craig? Not an accusation, just a serious question so we all know where we stand and why we find ourselves discussing this at this time

If the debate is about what people see as ethical or not, why should anyones motive matter? You are far too twisted young lad .... as I stated in my intial post, been around far too long and have seen things be back and forwards. Its simply come to a point where I truly wonder whether my 'value set' is out of kilter with the common consensus. Looking at some of the reponses, it clearly is. Having said that, as no one mines someone else running events at established venues, I'm off to book some events at Chiswick, Hammersmith and Solihull Rovers club

Oh, by the way ... where do you stand?

[Andy McGregor]

Having said that, as no one minds someone else running events at established venues, I'm off to book some events at Chiswick, Hammersmith and Solihull Rovers club

Oh, by the way ... where do you stand?

I really don't think an organiser can lay claim to a venue. If the venue has a night free I think that night is fair game for somebody else to book. I've booked major venues that have been used by many people. To say that you won't use particular venues for a Saturday night dance because somebody else uses that venue from time to time is patently rubbish.

I get the idea that Gus is very territorial and wouldn't like someone to book into a venue that he'd laid claim to - I'm afraid that claim is invalid if the venue are prepared to let you book if for a night.

[Gus]

II get the idea that Gus is very territorial and wouldn't like someone to book into a venue that he'd laid claim to - I'm afraid that claim is invalid if the venue are prepared to let you book if for a night.

Andy ... its not a case of being territorial ... it was simply ettiquette that you didn't muscle in on another operator's patch. That was for many years an accepted form of conduct. The fact that you see that it as a business opportunity illustrates how things have changed. I'm not saying that that is good or bad ... just personally I preferred it when we acted as 'Gentlemen' first and businesmen second. Now .... where did I put my snuff. Time to grab quill and parchment and write a stern letter to The Times

[Gus]

HOLD ON! Who says that Instructors can't date students? That'll ensure their celibacy then!

[Andy McGregor]

But what damages the market? I've seen a number of clubs start up recently with NO busking. Where are the new dancers coming from? In most cases, they are simply taking them off other clubs. This obviously doesn't help the market. Ceroc is an easy target to kick, but the one consistent thing is that they do bring in new dancers.

We do NO busking. I've found it gets too many women and upsets the balance of the sexes in a way that's difficult to handle as they are all total beginners. On the other hand, we spend a lot of money on leafletting, posters and advertising. This produces as many new people as we can handle.

There is a mind-set amongst certain organisers that you need to attract experienced dancers. I do not have this mind-set. My belief is that you can start a night and attract new dancers. Those dancers will, eventually, become experienced dancers. Besides, who wants people from other nights with their bounces, semi-circles, collapsed arms, giant back-steps, painful jerking and tugging and broken shoulders?

[Andy McGregor]

Andy ... its not a case of being territorial ... it was simply ettiquette that you didn't muscle in on another operator's patch.

IMHO dance teachers don't have a patch. They have students and they teach them to dance. Poaching other people's students, now that's unethical.

We've currently got a situation where a local organiser has been using our classes as a recruiting ground for his crew. Ethical?

[bigdjiver]

originally Posted by Christine Keeble
I taught Le Roc with Michel at the Centre Charles Peguy, Leicester Square on Saturdays and James and Janie Cronin taught Ceroc at the Centre Charles Peguy at Leicester Square – also on Saturdays. Their class followed ours ...

Same venue - same day. Presumably some of the keener dancers from Michel's and Christine's class stayed on, and that had to be a godsend for Jame's class. We can only speculate where MJ would be now if James had tried to set up in virgin territory.

Business is about exploiting opportunities. "Ethics" comes under P.R. and "Image", and is often considered one of the least essential business expenses, the first place to cut. Venues are rented, not owned.

[bigdjiver]

...We've currently got a situation where a local organiser has been using our classes as a recruiting ground for his crew. Ethical?

Pragmatic. Efficient. Cost effective. Legal. They are running a business, not a church.

[Gus]

Business is about exploiting opportunities. "Ethics" comes under P.R. and "Image", and is often considered one of the least essential business expenses, the first place to cut.

\ahem ... not in all cases. I work for Co-Op Financial Services. The 'Ethics' ethos pervades right the way through the business ... not just marketing, its a fundamental commitment. There are a number of MJ clubs that are run as Co-operatives. They provide a play to dance and socialise .... not interested in competing against others. Surprisingly, the local one is packed out.

Venues are rented, not owned.

Technically true, but is 'right, might'? Just because I can pay a higher rent should I be able to take over a venue where someone may have spent a lot of time building up the market? In football, this has sort of become the way of the world. Look at Chelsea ... they've just used cash and brute force to produce a successful team .. is this a model that could be applied to MJ. Would be interesting ... take over the best venue, round here that would be Stockport Town Hall ..... pay the best teachers and DJs for exclusive deals and just watch the pennies flood in. Wonder if it would actualy work ... would be fun to find out.