3 Moves in a Beginners Class?

[martingold]

What they don't really tell you in class is that followers don't need to, and probably shouldn't, learn the moves – they should instead learn to follow.

I've been a taxi dancer before I became a teacher, so I can see what you're saying, but I personally don't agree

which bit do you not agree to?
that the first timers will not remember moves from the first to the second week?
or it takes more than 2 hours to teach 4 moves to people who have been dancing for a few weeks ie 4 or 5
In my short experience (only nine years) of ceroc most people take two weeks just to learn how to learn it and get through the rabbit in the headlights stage once you get people through that and they realise they are not the only people who have had trouble learning the moves they learn a lot quicker
I think more important than the amount of moves is the passion of the people teaching

[Caz]

As a taxi dancer I welcome the idea of 3 moves in a beginners class. It gives you more time to review the moves in the revision sessoin and to go over them in the sequence more often - which from feedback received helps the beginners more as they then feel like they are "dancing" rather than doing 3 (or previously 4 or 5) solitary moves.

Also cutting it down to 3 moves I feel takes the pressure off rushing through the moves (as sometimes could happen in a complicated 5 move routine), hence taking the pressure off the teacher / taxi dancer to have to get through the moves no matter what and also the beginners as the revision session can be more relaxed and informal (which is what I personally feel it should be, as it is then more fun which people enjoy and will come back for) as well as providing beginners with the relevant framework to build on.

What they don't really tell you in class is that followers don't need to, and probably shouldn't, learn the moves – they should instead learn to follow.

I try to emphasise this when I take revision session. It is human nature to want to "learn the moves" so to speak but I always emphasise to the new beginner followers that there are umpteen number of moves in Ceroc so even tho we may be reviewing say 3 moves tonight, that in freestyle a leader may lead any of these umpteen moves (i.e. an armjive can lead into a armjive pushspin, swizzle or simple armjive as a beginners move so it is important not to assume that the leader is doing either one of these).

[Steven666]

this word isn't in my vocabulary

Are you sure?

[ducasi]

Are you sure?

Back-leading is much more common in "long-term intermediate" dancers than relative beginners of 3 months. I certainly haven't noticed any back-leading from jeanie when I've danced with her – have you?

[jeanie]

Are you sure?

As in I don't know what it means...

[jeanie]

Back-leading is much more common in "long-term intermediate" dancers than relative beginners of 3 months. I certainly haven't noticed any back-leading from jeanie when I've danced with her – have you?

Well thanks

[martingold]

As a taxi dancer I welcome the idea of 3 moves in a beginners class. It gives you more time to review the moves in the revision sessoin and to go over them in the sequence more often - which from feedback received helps the beginners more as they then feel like they are "dancing" rather than doing 3 (or previously 4 or 5) solitary moves.

Also cutting it down to 3 moves I feel takes the pressure off rushing through the moves (as sometimes could happen in a complicated 5 move routine), hence taking the pressure off the teacher / taxi dancer to have to get through the moves no matter what and also the beginners as the revision session can be more relaxed and informal (which is what I personally feel it should be, as it is then more fun which people enjoy and will come back for) as well as providing beginners with the relevant framework to build on.

I try to emphasise this when I take revision session. It is human nature to want to "learn the moves" so to speak but I always emphasise to the new beginner followers that there are umpteen number of moves in Ceroc so even tho we may be reviewing say 3 moves tonight, that in freestyle a leader may lead any of these umpteen moves (i.e. an armjive can lead into a armjive pushspin, swizzle or simple armjive as a beginners move so it is important not to assume that the leader is doing either one of these).

I have had plenty of feedback which is quite the opposite ie that four moves is ok and we always dance them through in sequence time and time again as we are a review class not teaching the move first time
we always get through the class well before 9.45 which is aproximately when then intermediate class finishes then we have an informal chat about the lesson and the moves going through any again that the class wants or even an individual
To be honest as a taxi i feel it is our duty to help the beginners whether its our week or not so will keep an eye on anyone who is having trouble and look after them until they are confident enough to go to the intermediate class no matter how many weeks it takes
and as i have said before if a teacher and the taxi crew cant teach 4 moves in 2 hrs (30 mins per move) well doesnt that say something about the teaching

[stewart38]

3 moves in the inetermediate has been around for years in some classes as the teachers cant be arse to re-learn 4 and will often take one over from the week before

For beginners good idea

Last time I went to Fulham they did 5 beginners moves (ok one was very simple but even so)

[Caz]

I have had plenty of feedback which is quite the opposite ie that four moves is ok and we always dance them through in sequence time and time again as we are a review class not teaching the move first time
we always get through the class well before 9.45 which is aproximately when then intermediate class finishes then we have an informal chat about the lesson and the moves going through any again that the class wants or even an individual


and as i have said before if a teacher and the taxi crew cant teach 4 moves in 2 hrs (30 mins per move) well doesnt that say something about the teaching

Guess our experiences differ then.... Have to say though that you can't put it all onto the teacher / teaching.. some beginners take more time than others .. yeah the teacher teachers a 45 minute beginners lesson then you have freestyle for 1/2 an hour (in which time it can be impossible for the 2 taxi dancers to get round every beginner dependent on how many there are / how experienced they beginners are / how easily they grasp things) and then 1/2 an hour for refresher session.. yeah it is almost 2 hours but like I say individual differences do play a part... some people will find that even after many hours of teaching they still don't grasp it (no matter who the teacher and how good they are)...

In a nutshell tho IMHO i think 3 moves is a good idea

3 moves in the inetermediate has been around for years in some classes as the teachers cant be arse to re-learn 4 and will often take one over from the week before

For beginners good idea

Last time I went to Fulham they did 5 beginners moves (ok one was very simple but even so)

To reiterate....I personally feel again that 5 moves is / was too many for new beginners. yeah one may have been very simple but to a brand new beginner the "simple moves" i.e. the in and out isn't all that simple for everyone ....

[straycat]

3 moves in the inetermediate has been around for years in some classes as the teachers cant be arse to re-learn 4 and will often take one over from the week before

Or it could be a carefully considered decision, taken to improve the continuity of classes. Personally, I think this is a good idea - whatever the level of class.

[martingold]

Guess our experiences differ then.... Have to say though that you can't put it all onto the teacher / teaching.. some beginners take more time than others .. yeah the teacher teachers a 45 minute beginners lesson then you have freestyle for 1/2 an hour (in which time it can be impossible for the 2 taxi dancers to get round every beginner dependent on how many there are / how experienced they beginners are / how easily they grasp things) and then 1/2 an hour for refresher session.. yeah it is almost 2 hours but like I say individual differences do play a part... some people will find that even after many hours of teaching they still don't grasp it (no matter who the teacher and how good they are)...

couldn't agree more with you about some people but that's not the majority and surely you set the class for the majority then work harder with the minority
I see a couple of differences in the way we do things we have a 45 min beginners class then 15 min freestyle then 45 min review class the taxis are on duty from 8 till 10pm
also we have at least 4 taxis on at a time more if they are needed on tues nite we had 6 which obviously means you have more individual time with beginners

[Steven666]

3 moves in the inetermediate has been around for years in some classes as the teachers cant be arse to re-learn 4 and will often take one over from the week before

For beginners good idea

Last time I went to Fulham they did 5 beginners moves (ok one was very simple but even so)

I've never seen intermediate moves repeated the next week? Does that really happen?

[martingold]

I've never seen intermediate moves repeated the next week? Does that really happen?

same here i have never seen an intermediate move repeated and normally our teacher teaches three or four moves in the intermediate depending on how quickly the class gets them

[Gadget]

I think it's a good thing, primaraly because it should give more time actually dancing to music rather than 'stepping through' or listening to the teacher rather than dancing.

[EricD]

... if a teacher and the taxi crew cant teach 4 moves in 2 hrs (30 mins per move) well doesnt that say something about the teaching

So you have one taxi dedicated to each beginner ? That's great ! We tend to have 18 beginners & 2 taxis who are rushed off their feet !

Teaching 4 moves in 2 hrs is one thing ... learning 4 moves in 2 hrs is quite another !

You can show them what the move looks like, and they may even be able to do something that looks like the move. Is that enough ?

[David Bailey]

I have had plenty of feedback which is quite the opposite ie that four moves is ok and we always dance them through in sequence time and time again as we are a review class not teaching the move first time

Well, I'm sure Ceroc have done their own research and feedback exercise, they don't tend to do this sort of change without thinking about it first.

and as i have said before if a teacher and the taxi crew cant teach 4 moves in 2 hrs (30 mins per move) well doesnt that say something about the teaching

Why do you think that quantity is better than quality? I'd rather learn one move well than (say) 8 moves badly.

And if this change means there's even a slight shift away from the move-monster approach - and it seems that it does - then that's a Good Thing.

[MartinHarper]

If a teacher and the taxi crew cant teach 4 moves in 2 hrs (30 mins per move) well doesn't that say something about the teaching?

If a teacher and the taxi crew can't think of thirty minutes worth of things to teach about each move, doesn't that say something about the teaching?

[geoff332]

I've got a couple of thoughts on this (slightly fluffy thoughts, but that's because it's Sunday) ...

Firstly, I was chatting to some people the other week who had been to a few Ceroc classes. They had given up on Ceroc and started doing salsa. Their reason was that they found Ceroc harder.

What they meant was simple. In Ceroc, they weren't told enough about what to do. They were, for example, told to "step back" but were never sure which foot to be on. The follows, in particular, were told very little about what they were supposed to be doing.

I don't think this is a case of not having enough time to teach the moves. The problem seems to be that the wrong information is being communicated. Trying to teach a single move but never passing on the "right" information will not be more effective.

Secondly, I've been to a range of different approaches to teaching dance. This range from the almost purist approaches where the dance is far more important that the students. This means the classes are designed to teach you how to do the dance properly (ie, highly technical and pedantic teaching). There are strict rules and assessment to actually go up levels. You spend huge amounts of time on a few moves so you can perfect them.

I've been to classes where the focus has been on retaining large numbers of people. They put the priority on keeping people happy, rather than on the dancing itself. And I've been to a few that fall in between the two extremes.

The best Ceroc venues I've been to have been closer to the former than the latter. There is still the emphasis on fun and entertainment that characterises Ceroc, but there is also a seriousness about the dancing. Some of these venues do require you to be assessed before moving from beginner to intermediate. The expectation is that you will do 20 lessons at one level before moving up. And they have genuine advanced classes every week.

The reason they are the best venues are both because they have a core of people who genuinely love dancing and because the overall standard is significantly higher than anywhere else I've been. But they do require a degree of dedication that makes them less attractive to, and harder to "break in" to, for new dancers.

Fewer moves in a class is likely to do relatively little to change the dynamics of who stays at a class. It's unlikey to improve the standard of teaching or the quality of learning. I suspect a good teachers can teach four moves, with a bunch of technique, in 45 minutes without too much trouble. I suspect other changes could have been made that would have been more effective.

[FirstMove]

My gut feeling is that there are now 3 moves where there were 4. Instead of 45', it'll take 31'15" to recite the ceroc scripts. Padding will fill-up some of the remaining time, along with more freestyle.

Most teachers will have some useful things to say about technique, but alot of taxi dancers won't. Beginners complaining that they have to sit about waiting for the intermediate class to finish is the most frequent complaint I have heard. A goodly number of newcomers seem to take the opportunity to leave at this point.

Ultimately, franchisees will notice that teachers are teaching for less time, and give them a paycut

[David Bailey]

Most teachers will have some useful things to say about technique, but alot of taxi dancers won't.

Bit of a generalisation, isn't it?

And are you saying that you think 3 moves are a good thing, or a bad thing?

Beginners complaining that they have to sit about waiting for the intermediate class to finish is the most frequent complaint I have heard.

Don't understand - are these people who just don't want to do the review class, or what?