3 Moves in a Beginners Class?

[David Bailey]

The cynic in me says that this kind of detail isn't likely to make it out there into many Ceroc classes at all, least of all beginners classes.

Oh sure - but at least there's an opportunity to put this detail in, for some teachers - or, there's less excuse not to cover some technique. Teachers can't complain so much that they need to focus on moves rather than technique.

It's just not the way the model works. In the grand scheme of things I'm not confident that many of the teachers could really do a good job of it either*. I'm very much doubting that there's a convenient CTA script for such things.

Again I agree - but it gives good teachers more time in which to put such teaching. So, possibly, over the long term, it gives better teachers more opportunity to shine, rather than forcing them into a strict routine with little room for variation.

I'd also say that there is only so much a company can do to make a dance class more friendly for beginners and that Ceroc has invested a huge amount of effort and resources into doing thing already. It's difficult to be more beginner friendly than Ceroc already is. If they say they're not coming back because it's too hard then I suspect it's more likely because they're really uncomfortable with the idea of dancing with someone at all, or perhaps just with strangers.

Yeah, I'm not convinced that 3-move beginner classes will make things more beginner-friendly either. In that it may appear that you're learning "less dancing", it may even be less attractive to beginners.

[David Bailey]

I went tonight and it was three moves for both classes.

Right, cool - thanks for that.

Our next goal should be a 3-move beginner class and 2-move intermediate

Yes more technique can be instructed but when your on the floor, are the beginners REALLY taking it all in and noting what I have heard many times being called "waffle"? (NB : not referring to Hyde specifically at all)

The answer is a simple no on a general scale. The odd one or two might but that's all.

Depends on the teacher. A good teacher will command attention and respect. A poor teacher will substitute demonstration and movement instead of teaching.

And this should hopefully give the good teachers opportunities to demonstrate their abilities.

[martingold]

Off the top of my head, you can say simple things like:
- Don't yank / push, just lead / invite
- Smile
- Take small steps
- Followers, follow your partner not the routine
- Leaders, lead the move, don't rely on sequence

As a taxi dancer we do all that in the beginners review class
IMHO 4 moves in 45 mins is good we normally finish the review class early so we have plenty of time to teach the basics of partner dancing and of course the hand hold which is your left hand etc
Most of the people i talk to find the teaching too slow as it is
of course you will get the odd one who has trouble picking things up in a class so then you give them more attention when you do the one to one teaching.
We find the most important thing to teach is that the whole situation is there for enjoyment and should not be looked upon as a chore we do tend to keep most of, if not all the new members certainly through the beginner stages

[straycat]

And do you hear as such when you up on the stage? I doubt it!

The good teachers pay very close attention to the people they're teaching. Something like that will glaringly obvious to them, believe me.

[TurboTomato]

The problem might be that the beginner class gets boring for intermediates and we will lose the "everybody joins in" ethos. This is where recording everything on the computer should really show its worth. Not only can Ceroc analyse retention rates, but can also see how the changes affect arrival times.

Very good point that I was going to mention as well!

[Steven666]

The good teachers pay very close attention to the people they're teaching. Something like that will glaringly obvious to them, believe me.

I know of teachers who seem to like staying oblivious to it all.

Also whispers don't travel well.

[drathzel]

I have been teaching 3 moves for 2 months now.

I found that because i had an influx and new beginners to both my classes that we couldnt get through 4. Rather than rushing and getting through 4 with noone actually learning anything i dropped it down to three. I found that beginners find it better and yes as a few people have said you can talk about things like lead and follow in depth.

I knew things were changing to 3 moves so i kept my routine at 3 moves and had loads of fab feed back.

[David Bailey]

As a teacher, I've welcomed it with open arms.

I knew things were changing to 3 moves so i kept my routine at 3 moves and had loads of fab feed back.

I'm all for it too.

, IMHO i think it`s definately a good thing

Any teachers who think it's not a good idea?

[Gus]

TBH, my experience is that the real beginners do actually listen, and most try to actually do the things that you're teaching.

Not trying to be awkward, but 'trying to listen' and actualy comprehending are usualy two very different things. Ask any real world teacher or trainer! I think that there may be far more benefit for trying to facilitate more 'muscle memory' rather than a teacher trying to communicate a points that a newbie is probably not going totake on.

Key point though .... is CTA trying to move from its previously stated objective of 'entertaining' and bringing in the masses to trying to actualy teach dance? If so, I think retention numbers may be im,pacted ina negative rather than apositive way. No being as flippant as it may sound. It sounds a major step change from the fundamental approach which was the basis of my original CTA training.

Final point ... whatever reservation I may have, Ceroc are still to be lauded in that they are proactively seeking feedback and acting on it. Any other MJ organisations doing this?

[JiveLad]

Yes yes yes.

I take myself back to when I was a beginner. 4 moves was just toooooo much. I couldn't take it in. (Ok - I know I'm slow etc.....even so).

I feel the same with Intermediate classes - reduce the number of moves! (see my (mildly entertaining)manifesto on teaching at Jive Lad: Manifesto (2) - Teaching)


Just re-reading it - actually just 2 intermediate moves seems one too few.

Anyway - I digress....the main point is yes - just 3 moves is FINE and RIGHT!

[Gus]

Any teachers who think it's not a good idea?

Ahem BUT ... not seen it in practice. As said before, the feedback we had previousy from people who stopped dancers didn't state the 4 moves as the issue....

[David Bailey]

Ahem

A/ You're obviously not a real teacher
B/ You didn't say "I think it's a bad idea", you just expressed reservations.

[Gus]

B/ You didn't say "I think it's a bad idea", you just expressed reservations.

Saying its 'not a good idea' isn't the same as saying 'its a bad idea' ..... there is a neutral zone.

Now having managed to secure a latte, had time to think about another angle. Whereas I would need to be convinecd as to whether its good for all beginners (lets be honest, the ability/experience of the teacher will have a big bearing) .... I can see the potential for retaining the interest of the non-newbies who are doing the lesson.

Previously a few of us used to put in style & teachnique tips aimed at the intermediates doing the class ... to keep them interested. Less moves means more time for this element. I think a major probelm with beginners class is that many improvers don't take part. The class has a totally different dynamic if you have better dancers taking part. Maybe this would have been a more usefull approach to keeping begiiners coming back?

[Steven666]

Ahem BUT ... not seen it in practice. As said before, the feedback we had previousy from people who stopped dancers didn't state the 4 moves as the issue....

What did they state?

[tsh]

Maybe it is true that it's better for some teachers than for others...

The number of moves taught is probably not a major factor from the beginner's point of view, especially compared with something like lindy where (yes, you're more likely to be in a sequence of lessons) the first lesson probably only really covers footwork. It's a bonus to be able to dance to a whole track after one lesson but you could achieve that by teaching a single move and variations.

Giving teachers the flexibility to appeal more to the intermediates (who ought to be beneficial to the class) has to be a good thing. Many teachers probably have nothing to contribute here. Some will try to teach style (which is a bad thing imo, since it covers up what is really happening), and some will be able to teach how to make the moves easier.

Clearly, if a teacher is unable to describe a shoulder drop clearly (turn one at a time, turn anti-clockwise under your own arm, maybe some suggested footwork - and not relying on the class being able to see the teacher) they need to rely on the class teaching themselves - but this is easier if things are less rushed. Even having several tries before moving on makes a difference sometimes.

Sean

[martingold]

as one of the moves is almost certain to be the step across, the man spin, the comb or the shoulder slide all of which take very little time to teach and beginners learn really quickly i think dropping to the three moves would be a bad idea
i thought that ceroc were going to do a carry over ie still teach 4 moves but take one move from the week before as one of the 4 which helps compound the lesson

also how many weeks are people going to stay in the beginners class now then ? 8? because simple maths will tell you that you cant teach three moves a week for 6 weeks if you want to teach all 19 beginners moves

another thing that bothers me is when people go to the intermediate class the teacher will say something like this moves starts with a sway, lady spin etc which are not now taught in the beginners class since the drop from 25 to 19 beginners moves

[Steven666]

as one of the moves is almost certain to be the step across, the man spin, the comb or the shoulder slide all of which take very little time to teach and beginners learn really quickly i think dropping to the three moves would be a bad idea
i thought that ceroc were going to do a carry over ie still teach 4 moves but take one move from the week before as one of the 4 which helps compound the lesson

Good point. The Shoulder slide was one of the three moves yesterday. However, there is still a bit to teach on it, however simple it is.

also how many weeks are people going to stay in the beginners class now then ? 8? because simple maths will tell you that you cant teach three moves a week for 6 weeks if you want to teach all 19 beginners moves

Remember that one move is repeated the following week so then the maths looks something like:

3+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2 = 19

ie 9 weeks MINIMUM assuming the moves are spread out equally over that time. That's over two months!!!

another thing that bothers me is when people go to the intermediate class the teacher will say something like this moves starts with a sway, lady spin etc which are not now taught in the beginners class since the drop from 25 to 19 beginners moves

So true. Sways, pretzels and the like should be downgraded as far as I'm concerned and now with the extra teaching time, beginners may pick them up easier.

[martingold]

Good point. The Shoulder slide was one of the three moves yesterday. However, there is still a bit to teach on it, however simple it is.

Remember that one move is repeated the following week so then the maths looks something like:

3+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2 = 19

ie 9 weeks MINIMUM assuming the moves are spread out equally over that time. That's over two months!!!

So true. Sways, pretzels and the like should be downgraded as far as I'm concerned and now with the extra teaching time, beginners may pick them up easier.

all of this is my argument exactly the shoulder slide does as you say take a little time to teach but nothing like as long as say a yo-yo or octopus so having that as a fourth move is ok

as for saying 4 moves in 45 minutes dont forget the taxi dancers as they only dance with beginners until ten pm so they get 4 moves in two hours i would think anyone could teach a move in 30 minutes

[David Bailey]

as one of the moves is almost certain to be the step across, the man spin, the comb or the shoulder slide all of which take very little time to teach and beginners learn really quickly

Possibly, teaching these moves with some actual technique would be helpful then? I.e. teaching how to lead them, to follow them, maybe even how to lead them well? I know, it's a crazy idea... But Viktor's been known to teach an entire hour-long class on the First Move - and he got ecstatic reviews for that class.

i thought that ceroc were going to do a carry over ie still teach 4 moves but take one move from the week before as one of the 4 which helps compound the lesson

That's only useful in a course situation, it's kind of pointless if you have a large number of people coming there for the first time :
"And here's what we did last week..."
"Err... " *sea of hands rising up*

also how many weeks are people going to stay in the beginners class now then ? 8? because simple maths will tell you that you cant teach three moves a week for 6 weeks if you want to teach all 19 beginners moves

6 weeks is an insanely short time to be classed as a beginner - even in MJ.

I've been doing AT for over two years now, I'm a beginner. And that's a proper beginner, not one of your Zen Master Just-a-beginner dancers.

[Jamie]

So true. Sways, pretzels and the like should be downgraded as far as I'm concerned and now with the extra teaching time, beginners may pick them up easier.

NOOOOO!!! I know most of the people on this forum pick moves up very easily, some even after just watching a move, the others only need one teach through etc.. However, there are beginners who do not know how to put one foot in front of the other... Litterally, when you're going through Ceroc Essentials, they are learning how to dance to a beat for the first time in their life. If you then say, okay, men offer your left hand to the lady's right... Semi circle and SIGNAL!! WHAT!?!? SIGNAL!!?!? AHHH *dies*

The whole point of a beginners moves is that it's simple, they're bog standard moves which are also the basis of many intermediate and beyond moves. The classic moves are fine where they are in the intermediate routines.

You've just got to think, on their first night as someone who's never danced before in their lives, would you then want them going round pretzeling everyone!? Think of the injurys alone before you attempt to visualise their disapointment and frustration that they can't "get" the move, I cirtainly wouldn't come back.

all of this is my argument exactly the shoulder slide does as you say take a little time to teach but nothing like as long as say a yo-yo or octopus so having that as a fourth move is ok

as for saying 4 moves in 45 minutes dont forget the taxi dancers as they only dance with beginners until ten pm so they get 4 moves in two hours i would think anyone could teach a move in 30 minutes

The main reason I love the change is I taught at a new venue with mostly brand new beginners for the first month or two, I would get routines with 5 moves (don't forget the in&out!) and teach them to these brand new beginners who would get half way through the routine, then panic because they can't remember what comes next.

Believe it or not, there are some beginners that need more time than others, I know that's a shock to some of you who obviously picked up the entire Ceroc dance and became teachers after your first week, but for those of us who are mere mortals...