Treasure Trove.....

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
If someone finds a bit of long lost treasure in a public place [...] it is generally accepted that they can sell it for whatever they can get for it.

Actually, not to be pedantic (where's Andy when you need him), but if you did this, you'd be breaking the law.

Any pre-owned (ie, the law of Res Nullius does not apply) item that is found, is classed as 'Treasure Trove' and belongs to the Queen. You have a legal obligation to hand it in at your nearest police station.

Apart from that, you're quite right of course

Steve

[Aleks]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, not to be pedantic (where's Andy when you need him)...........

I thought the pedant was Graham!?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Aleks
I thought the pedant was Graham!?

Nah. Graham's the one who does all those nice little charts and graphs. Andy's much better at being the pedant.

Steve

[Aleks]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Nah. Graham's the one who does all those nice little charts and graphs. Andy's much better at being the pedant.

Steve

Maybe we could get him to make a chart/graph on who's been most pedantic in the last 6 months??

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, not to be pedantic (where's Andy when you need him), but if you did this, you'd be breaking the law.

Any pre-owned (ie, the law of Res Nullius does not apply) item that is found, is classed as 'Treasure Trove' and belongs to the Queen. You have a legal obligation to hand it in at your nearest police station.

Apart from that, you're quite right of course

Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bigdjiver
If someone finds a bit of long lost treasure in a public place [...] it is generally accepted that they can sell it for whatever they can get for it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, not to be pedantic (where's Andy when you need him), but if you did this, you'd be breaking the law.

Any pre-owned (ie, the law of Res Nullius does not apply) item that is found, is classed as 'Treasure Trove' and belongs to the Queen. You have a legal obligation to hand it in at your nearest police station.

Apart from that, you're quite right of course

Steve
===================================

to be pedantic:

http://www.treasuretrove.org.uk/

says you can take it to various places, none of which are a police station, or Buckingham Palace.

One way or another the finder usually gets the market value.

[TheTramp]

That's referring to things that are archeologically and historically significant (the clue is in the first sentence on the first page). Hence, that is why that site says to take it to a museum. Your actual words were 'treasure'. However, if you found a video recorder or any items from a robbery for further (and more general) example, which would also be classed as 'treasure trove', then you'd be unlikely to take it to a museum!

It does however, under the 'legal position', say

The crucial maxim within Scots common law is quod nullius est fit domini regis (that which belongs to nobody becomes our Lord the King’s [or Queen’s]). Thus all objects whose original owner or rightful heir cannot be identified or traced are the property of the Crown.

Which is what I said.

And yes, you would usually be given the current market value as a reward (although, in all probability, you would get the actual item back - only items that are historically significant would be kept under normal circumstances).

So, in essence, what I said was right. Although, I didn't clarify it quite as fully as I could have. For which I apologise. What you said about treasure trove was just wrong.

Steve

[Graham]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
to be pedantic:

http://www.treasuretrove.org.uk/

says you can take it to various places, none of which are a police station, or Buckingham Palace.

One way or another the finder usually gets the market value.

For anyone who's still awake: Note that the above link describes the situation in Scotland. The laws in England and Wales are different, although similar in the case of ancient items. Steve's explanation is partially correct. All treasure-trove technically belongs to the crown and is disposed of according to its significance by designated authorities. In practice most "treasure" is not of great significance and will be returned to the finder. However, valuable finds WOULD be claimed by the crown, and anyone trying to dispose of them in some other way (such as selling them at a car boot sale!) WOULD be committing an offence. There is a reward scheme however, to encourage honesty! Note that what constitutes treasure-trove is NOT the same in Scotland and England/Wales.

[Funky Si]

"I see dead people........." *snore*

Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Funky Si
"I see dead people........." *snore*

Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

According to my drinking companion, Cliff, the legal position on those ...

[jiveclone]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
According to my drinking companion, Cliff, the legal position on those ...

According to Burke and Hare, the illegal position on those ...

[Graham]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
If someone finds a bit of long lost treasure in a public place or buys something valuable at a car boot sale cheaply, it is generally accepted that they can sell it for whatever they can get for it. The price has nothing to do with how much it cost them to acquire. If they produce a work of art in high demand no-one complains if they sell it to the highest bidder.

Now we've been split off from the original thread I don't feel so bad pointing out the other error in the original post. If you buy something cheaply at a car boot sale it is only "generally accepted that you can sell it for whatever you can get for it" if it in fact belongs to you. If the item was lost/stolen, then it DOES NOT belong to you, even though you paid to acquire it, and assuming the legitimate owner can demonstrate that it belongs to them, then the item must be returned. There is no requirement for them to offer a reward, or to reimburse whatever you may have paid to acquire the item. This isn't too serious a problem at a car-boot sale, unless you stumble upon a Picasso or something, but it also applies to items like motor vehicles.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Graham
Now we've been split off from the original thread I don't feel so bad pointing out the other error in the original post. If you buy something cheaply at a car boot sale it is only "generally accepted that you can sell it for whatever you can get for it" if it in fact belongs to you. If the item was lost/stolen, then it DOES NOT belong to you, even though you paid to acquire it, and assuming the legitimate owner can demonstrate that it belongs to them, then the item must be returned. There is no requirement for them to offer a reward, or to reimburse whatever you may have paid to acquire the item. This isn't too serious a problem at a car-boot sale, unless you stumble upon a Picasso or something, but it also applies to items like motor vehicles.

Whee..... See, I've only been doing law for like 5 weeks, and we're already into legal arguements. This is so cool

First up. Bigdjiver didn't say anything about the item at a car boot sale having been stolen. It could just be that the person selling it, didn't realise that they had a valuable item - quite possibly this would happen in the case of antiques, rather than a Picasso (which would presumably have been signed, and hence not sold for 20p).

However, the law that you stated is quite true in Scotland. In England (which is where Bigdjiver lives), there is the law of 'market ouverte', where if you buy an item, which you do not know is stolen, then you are entitled to keep that item, and the real owner is entitled to seek compensation from the thief. So, if you did go to a car boot sale, and buy an item that you didn't know was stolen, you would be entitled to keep possession of it.

Interestingly enough, in Scotland, while if you obtain goods by theft, and then sell them, the original owner is still entitled to get them back. If you were to obtain goods by fraud, and then sell them, the original owner is not entitled to reclaim possession of the goods, and can only seek compensation for them from the thief (fraudster?).

Going back to the original discussion on treasure trove, just to bring in the legislation; in Scotland, it is under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (sections 67-75), which states that a person who finds an article, is required to take reasonable care of the article, and within a reasonable time to deliver it, or report it's finding, to the police, or to the owner or occupier of the premises upon which the article is found. Just to clarify you understand

Everyone asleep yet?

Steve

[Graham]

Originally posted by TheTramp
However, the law that you stated is quite true in Scotland. In England (which is where Bigdjiver lives), there is the law of 'market ouverte', where if you buy an item, which you do not know is stolen, then you are entitled to keep that item, and the real owner is entitled to seek compensation from the thief. So, if you did go to a car boot sale, and buy an item that you didn't know was stolen, you would be entitled to keep possession of it.

Wasn't this repealed by the Sale of Goods (Amendment) Act 1994?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Graham
Wasn't this repealed by the Sale of Goods (Amendment) Act 1994?

Ummm. Sort of looks like it. I'll ask my lecturer tomorrow

I did mean to put a disclaimer on the original post, that any inaccuracies were to be blamed on lecturers at Dundee college. But forgot

Steve

[Forte]

Steve, Graham,
Isn't it a crime to talk legal matters in a dance forum? Or is that just cause I just don't understand any of it (being legally blonde)? !!
Jackie

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Forte
Steve, Graham,
Isn't it a crime to talk legal matters in a dance forum? Or is that just cause I just don't understand any of it (being legally blonde)? !!
Jackie

Probably.

But then, it's probably a crime to talk legal matters (and bore the pants off 99.7843 (this is an actual statistic ) of the people) anywhere.

Are you losing the will to live yet??

Steve

[Graham]

Originally posted by Forte
Steve, Graham,
Isn't it a crime to talk legal matters in a dance forum? Or is that just cause I just don't understand any of it (being legally blonde)? !!
Jackie

It's a civil matter rather than a criminal one..........

[Graham]

Originally posted by TheTramp
and bore the pants off 99.7843 (this is an actual statistic ) of the people

HEY!!! I'll let you post 1000 more times than anyone else, but leave the stats to the experts!

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Graham
HEY!!! I'll let you post 1000 more times than anyone else, but leave the stats to the experts!

Shush.

I was hoping that no-one would notice that!!

Steve

[Forte]

Talking of legal matters or civil ones (Graham!) I am teaching "Twelve Angry Men" to my S4. It has to be the ultimate courtroom drama (except it is set in the jury room not the court room but you know what I mean.) It might be in black and white but Henry Fonda rocks! Here's a quote for you Steve..."the burden of proof is on the prosecution". The innocent do not have to prove they are innocent...the accusors have to prove the defendant is guilty...yes?